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Format changes I: See and change your formats

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1timspalding
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 1:52pm Top

So, we've gone live with "phase 1" of the big format changes.

The changes are, in brief:

1. "Media" has been calculated for all your books, and for ISBNs and works when your book information is inadequate. Everywhere we use the "LibraryThing Media Taxonomy." (Link to come soon.) The assignments are a complex calculation, munging the (different) information from different data sources.

2. You can see the media field in your catalog. Go to LibraryThing Settings > Display Styles > Basic at https://www.librarything.com/settings/styles#basic to add "Media" to your Display Styles

3. You can see a linked summary of the media in your library within your catalog here: http://librarything.com/membermedia/MEMBERNAME

4. The Media is now reported during the add-book process. (The design of the add-books results has also got a minor facelift.)

5. You can also see the media when you edit a book. It's in the second part of the first section, under "Other authors" and above "Publication date." Note: Manual addition formats aren't save. We are working on it.

6. You can edit your media, both changing the media to another one of the LibraryThing Media Taxonomy terms, or adding your own media types pell-mell.

7. Your profile now includes a "Media" section. See https://www.librarything.com/profile/MEMBERNAME.

Some notes:

1. Some members are going to be surprised and/or distressed by their media. Mostly this is because members were not previously TOLD what media a book was, and added it because the cover was right. (Or, later, they changed the cover, changing the ISBN.) Other times, however, something is wrong. Media is a calculation from tricky data. Yesterday, for example, we discovered that "Unbound" from Amazon is unreliable, mostly being used for paperbacks by Amazon sellers. So we remapped it to Paper books.

When you edit a book's format there's a checkbox to note that the format was WRONG. Use it and leave a note there, and we'll see what can be fixed.

2. For a similar reason, we don't encourage making lots of changes to the standard taxonomy. Rather, tell us what changes you want and we'll consider them together.

What we haven't done:

1. We are not releasing a Power Edit feature until we get a better sense of what data problems are fixable globally.

2. We are not releasing any of the other media changes, such as the ability to add movies and CDs via Amazon, not just libraries, or the ways this impacts combination, until we've smoothed things out on this.

3. Manual-add formats aren't sticking, as mentioned.

Why are we exposing format information?

Format is basic to cataloging. We should have done it sooner.

Why are we allowing other formats?

LibraryThing is a book and book-lover's site. Books will always remain at the center. Nevertheless, we will be making it easier to catalog movies and music, which have in fact been cataloged on LibraryThing for years. This is mostly because "small libraries" absolutely require non-book cataloging. (See our new LibraryThing project TinyCat for why that's now very important to us.) But it's also for regular members.

2LolaWalser
Jul 2, 2015, 1:47pm Top

On Profile, when I click on any of the media showing, they are all loading "Your books". Looks like a bug?

3timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 1:59pm Top

>2 LolaWalser:

Thanks. Fixed.

4jjwilson61
Jul 2, 2015, 2:04pm Top

I don't see the checkbox for noting that the format was wrong. Is it on the Edit page?

5timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 2:06pm Top

Double-click to edit within the catalog. It's not within the Edit page, indeed. https://pics.librarything.com/picsizes/2c/4d/2c4da07214e14fd63682b356b67434b4171...

6Taphophile13
Jul 2, 2015, 2:07pm Top

This is very cool, another feature I didn't know I wanted/needed. Will this show up on our stats/memes page? I'd like to see it there if possible.

7gilroy
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 2:14pm Top

Question:

For book format, does it only break down to Paper book or Audio, or will it go deeper with like hard bound vs paperback, etc? Went looking at links, found my answer. Just the profile that's got the limited display.

Bug:
When I got to my profile, click on either format showing, the page appears to duplicate tags, yet when I drill down on the book itself, this isn't happening.

Win 7/IE 11

8bibliorex
Jul 2, 2015, 2:13pm Top

Great new feature, though I see I have to fix some of my data.

Quick question though: I need to add a new media type, and have tried to do so a couple times by typing in the name of the new media type and indicating where the new media type should be nested. I then click save, but it doesn't appear to be saving. When I open the work up, it stills shows as the old media type ("Unknown" in this case), and the new media type is not reflected in my overall list. I'm unsure if this is a bug or I'm not using the "add new media" feature correctly.

9gilroy
Jul 2, 2015, 2:18pm Top

>8 bibliorex: Tim's first post said manual entry media isn't sticking yet.

-----

Second question: IF someone had used tags to denote media type, were these taken into account?

10LolaWalser
Jul 2, 2015, 2:18pm Top

Came to ask same as >8 bibliorex:. Is there a lag? I did a dozen edits but nothing seems to have taken.

11bibliorex
Jul 2, 2015, 2:21pm Top

Got it, thanks, I glossed over that line. Looking forward to that feature being enabled.

12LolaWalser
Jul 2, 2015, 2:25pm Top

Also, I'm seeing duplicated tags in all sections of Media on Profile. Deleting one set of tags and saving didn't change it; still duplicated.

13Taphophile13
Jul 2, 2015, 2:27pm Top

I just took a look at the "Show Complete List" drop down. Wow! So many choices, I doubt it will be necessary to add much of anything.

14lorax
Jul 2, 2015, 2:42pm Top

No mass-market vs trade paperback distinction?

15gilroy
Jul 2, 2015, 2:48pm Top

Latest question:

How come, in catalogue view, sometimes is shows the full tree decision (like Book> Paper Book> Hardback) and other times it shows just the final selection (like Hardback)?

16elenchus
Jul 2, 2015, 2:54pm Top

>1 timspalding: When you edit a book's format there's a checkbox to note that the format was WRONG. Use it and leave a note there, and we'll see what can be fixed.

2. For a similar reason, we don't encourage making lots of changes to the standard taxonomy. Rather, tell us what changes you want and we'll consider them together.


To clarify, I'm correcting my books both when the LT assigned format is wrong, and when it's incomplete (e.g. Paper but not Paper > Hardback). But, I'm only using the checkbox when the format is wrong, not when incomplete (e.g. Paper but actually should be Ebook).

17lorax
Jul 2, 2015, 2:57pm Top

Like elenchus, I am correcting my books whenever they're wrong or incomplete, but only using the checkbox for actual errors. (And not even that for paperback / hardcover errors, since those are possibly PEBCAK that I had the edition wrong. Those I'm going to go find the copy to check the ISBN before making a correction.)

18AndreasP
Jul 2, 2015, 2:57pm Top

Great, but there is one very important media type missing: sheet music.

19ccatalfo
Jul 2, 2015, 2:59pm Top

>18 AndreasP: When you show all media formats in the dropdown you'll see Sheet Music. (Also important to me!)

20lorax
Jul 2, 2015, 2:59pm Top

>18 AndreasP:

It's there, but you have to click on "Show Complete List" and scroll down. It's under "Other > Printed Music > Sheet Music".

21elenchus
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 3:01pm Top

>18 AndreasP:

Assume that is part of the unbound category, which Tim mentioned was classified as Paper. But I agree, an important format.

Curious though: for books collecting sheet music into a single volume, typical of tutorials and practice books, would you consider that a Paper Book (whether paperback or hardback) or still a distinct sheet music? I would think those books are paperbacks, since format is not about the content (a score using musical notation) but the format.

ETA Missed the entry under "Show Complete List"

22elenchus
Jul 2, 2015, 3:03pm Top

For wishlist and similar entries in my catalogue, there is no actual format that applies. I understand the assignment to my record may be based on the ISBN or other edition I used / selected when entering the work into my library, but I'd prefer to mark these as "Unknown" since for the moment, they have no format. They are simply a placeholder until / unless I obtain an actual copy.

Any reason not to mark these "Not Set" (which becomes "Unknown" after entering)?

23lorax
Jul 2, 2015, 3:04pm Top

>21 elenchus:

for books collecting sheet music into a single volume, typical of tutorials and practice books, would you consider that a Paper Book (whether paperback or hardback) or still a distinct sheet music

I think those would almost certainly be what "Other > Printed Music > Paperback" (and the same for "Hardcover") are for.

24elenchus
Jul 2, 2015, 3:05pm Top

>23 lorax:

Clearly, I need to acquaint myself with the Complete List before I stick my neck out further.

25tottman
Jul 2, 2015, 3:10pm Top

This is one of my favorite updates. I love this change.

27timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 3:28pm Top

When I got to my profile, click on either format showing, the page appears to duplicate tags, yet when I drill down on the book itself, this isn't happening.

Can you say that another way? Duplicate tags? What tags?

Ah, see >26 lorax:

Quick question though: I need to add a new media type, and have tried to do so a couple times by typing in the name of the new media type and indicating where the new media type should be nested. I then click save, but it doesn't appear to be saving. When I open the work up, it stills shows as the old media type ("Unknown" in this case), and the new media type is not reflected in my overall list. I'm unsure if this is a bug or I'm not using the "add new media" feature correctly.

Was this on a new, manual-entry book? Because manual-entry isn't sticking. But the rest should be. (And is, when I do it.)

Second question: IF someone had used tags to denote media type, were these taken into account?

No. It's a cascade, from the record you used to add the book, to the ISBN and work. If it's the isbn or work, the classification will be green in your catalog.

Is there a lag? I did a dozen edits but nothing seems to have taken.

Are people still getting lags?

Also, I'm seeing duplicated tags in all sections of Media on Profile. Deleting one set of tags and saving didn't change it; still duplicated.

Can you explain what you mean?

No mass-market vs trade paperback distinction?

So, no. Generally-speaking we can't know that from the data. You can add it, but since we can't really guess it, we're leaving that up to you.

How come, in catalogue view, sometimes is shows the full tree decision (like Book> Paper Book> Hardback) and other times it shows just the final selection (like Hardback)?

I think in the catalog it always shows the long version, no?

To clarify, I'm correcting my books both when the LT assigned format is wrong, and when it's incomplete (e.g. Paper but not Paper > Hardback). But, I'm only using the checkbox when the format is wrong, not when incomplete (e.g. Paper but actually should be Ebook).

So, it's a tree sturcture. We classify as we can. In the case of libraries we can NEVER know whether it's hardback or paperback. With Amazon, we generally can.

Great, but there is one very important media type missing: sheet music.

No, it's there. See the complete list.

This is one of my favorite updates. I love this change.

Thank you.

>26 lorax:

What? Weird.

28lorax
Jul 2, 2015, 3:29pm Top

In the case of libraries we can NEVER know whether it's hardback or paperback

So you can't get it from the ISBN?

29jjwilson61
Jul 2, 2015, 3:32pm Top

I don't see a Media section on my Profile page. I even searched the page for Media and didn't find it. What am I missing?

30lorax
Jul 2, 2015, 3:37pm Top

>29 jjwilson61:

That section, apparently. For me it's right between "Collections" and "Reviews". But I don't see it on your profile either. I do see format (I am a cranky old book-preferring curmudgeon and will call it by that name) in your catalog if I use a view that includes it, but not on your profile. Weird!)

31timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 3:38pm Top

>28 lorax:

No, ISBNs don't encode that. Yes, sometimes we could know by failing to what we know about the ISBN (presumably from Amazon). Maybe we should do that. At present, if we have data for the book itself—amazon XML or library MARC—we use that. We aren't combining information like that.

32Lyndatrue
Jul 2, 2015, 3:40pm Top

I've edited a magazine multiple times. I select "show full list" and select "Magazine" and save. When I go back and look, it's not saved, and the short list seen here still has it in the Unknown bucket.

http://www.librarything.com/membermedia/Lyndatrue

I edited a couple of other books that were easy (one ebook, one hardcover), and those took, so it must be something to do with the "show full list" thing not working quite right.

I'll check back later on this.

33timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 3:41pm Top

>29 jjwilson61:

Ah, it doesn't appear if you have all the same media. It's only going two levels down—to paper book, not paper book > hardcover. All your library is "Paper book."

I'm not sure of the value of giving it when there's only one value, or going three levels down.

34timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 3:41pm Top

>32 Lyndatrue:

Okay, I'll look at it in a moment. I think there's a JavaScript error going on.

35lorax
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 3:46pm Top

>31 timspalding:

I know that ISBNs don't encode it, but I also know that the ISBN for a paperback and for a hardcover are different. So if someone has a book from Amazon, and I have the same book with the same ISBN from a library, you don't anchor the format that you got from the Amazon person's data to the ISBN data and use it for others?

(Back to the trade vs mmpb distinction, I wasn't expecting you to be able to capture it; I was expecting to be able to enter it myself as part of the tree. I can't see a way to nest it under Paperback, only under Paper Book.)

>33 timspalding:

I'd really love to be able to see it nest deeper, to Paperback/Hardcover, at least for those of us who only have books. I can see that for the primary target for this feature of people with lots and lots and lots of non-book media it could become unwieldy if you did that.

36LolaWalser
Jul 2, 2015, 3:45pm Top

I meant (>10 LolaWalser:) the bug lorax opened in >26 lorax:

37bibliorex
Jul 2, 2015, 3:45pm Top

>27 timspalding:: Tim, I wasn't trying to add a new media type to any new, manual-entry works (some were *old* manual-entry works), but I've just tested it on a half dozen and it works great now. The add new media entry is sticking for me now. Thanks! Great feature!

38timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 4:03pm Top

>36 LolaWalser:

Thanks. That was so off-the-wall I couldn't believe it. Fixed.

I know that ISBNs don't encode it, but I also know that the ISBN for a paperback and for a hardcover are different. So if someone has a book from Amazon, and I have the same book with the same ISBN from a library, you don't anchor the format that you got from the Amazon person's data to the ISBN data and use it for others?

No, LT generally uses either your data or infers from another's data. That would be a sort of combination. Still, it does make sense.

The key Q I have to deal with is whether it changes you book data, or "refines" your book data if it's a paper book. Interesting one. The former is easier, but the point of the higher-level data is that it can change as new information is learned.

(Back to the trade vs mmpb distinction, I wasn't expecting you to be able to capture it; I was expecting to be able to enter it myself as part of the tree. I can't see a way to nest it under Paperback, only under Paper Book.)

Ah, yes. It only allows additions on the first and second levels. Hmmm. Okay, I should probably allow that. Give me a bit fixing other stuff.

39jjwilson61
Jul 2, 2015, 4:05pm Top

>37 bibliorex: You may want to take this bit from the first post into account:

2. For a similar reason, we don't encourage making lots of changes to the standard taxonomy. Rather, tell us what changes you want and we'll consider them together.

40jjwilson61
Jul 2, 2015, 4:06pm Top

Isn't a trade paperback just a paperback with larger dimensions, in which case you already have dimension fields...

41lorax
Jul 2, 2015, 4:21pm Top

>40 jjwilson61:

You did ask.

Strictly speaking, "trade paperback" and "mass market paperback" refer to distribution channels and how books are sold, rather than to trim sizes. Mass market paperbacks can be stripped - the front cover torn off - and only the cover returned to the publisher. Trade paperbacks cannot be. (You'll sometimes see text in the front matter of mass-market paperbacks about how if you bought the book without a cover, it's stolen since it's been reported as "unsold and destroyed".) Generally speaking, in the US, mass-market paperbacks correspond to small trim sizes, trade paperbacks to larger ones, to the point that that's how most people use the terms. Publishers have occasionally experimented with non-strippable, small-format books; this generally ended very badly for all concerned when booksellers sent back the stripped-off covers wanting their refund. So yes, in practice it's a distinction of dimensions, but definitionally it's not.

That said, the format feature is nicely aggregated. The dimensions don't give me a way to lump things together and answer the question of "how many trade paperbacks do I have, and how many mass-markets?"

42timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 4:22pm Top

Okay, I'm not having the saving problems. But I can appreciate how they come about.(1) So I'm thinking problems saving are a browser issue. Anyone want to give me a browser it doesn't work for?

1. There isn't really one menu but two, a simple and an expanded. It shows and hides them as needed and keeps track of which one is operative at the time. Somehow it's slipping.

43timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 4:23pm Top

>41 lorax:

Thanks for that. I didn't know it all.

44AnnaClaire
Jul 2, 2015, 4:30pm Top

Besides simply "Other" I'm not sure what else I should do about books of postcards, such as art museums sell. (Examples from my own library, in case you were wondering, include this one, and this.)

45timspalding
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 4:42pm Top

Okay, I've found and replicated it not saving certain edits. I'm working on it.

>44 AnnaClaire:

Amazon gives its binding as "Card book." There are 870 of them in the LT system at present. (There are 16,592 things with the binding "Card").

Note: We can't just use Amazon's binding. Bindings are uncontrolled strings to Amazon. So far we've seen 394 of them. Rather, every biding that makes sense is mapped to something in the LibraryThing Media Taxonomy ( http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/The_LibraryThing_Media_Taxonomy ). At present "Card books" are mapped to 4, "Other." Suggestions appreciated for this case.

Just to give you an idea of complexity here, we also have mappings for all the uncontrolled strings provided by Book Depository and the MARC process, although we ourselves have come up with all the potential bindings knowable to the MARC system. And these bindings are in fact only half the story, because there's also a "product group" concept, allowing us to distinguish between CDs, files and so forth that are really books, not music or movies.

46MarthaJeanne
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 5:14pm Top

I have so many that are just plain wrong! I'm just going to ignore this feature, because fixing my library would take too long.

Is it possible to remove the media section from my profile so all this false information is not showing?

47Taphophile13
Jul 2, 2015, 4:51pm Top

In the case of a loose-leaf binder, should I

a) simply leave it as paperback,
b) add loose-leaf
c) or is that a category that LT might want to add?

Same question for comb-binding.

48AnnaClaire
Jul 2, 2015, 4:54pm Top

>45 timspalding:
I haven't thought this through completely, so I'll do that on the spot:

Post card books could have their own designation, though I'm undecided if they go under "Paper books" or under "Other" (since they're books-but-not-books).

Alternatively, since some of the... other Other stuff I have cataloged could be a group. I think of them as a slightly different critter than the postcard books, but I can see having designations of "Other > Cards > Bound" (postcards) and "Other > Cards > Unbound" (tarot cards, flash cards, playing cards and the like).

49AnnaClaire
Jul 2, 2015, 4:57pm Top

>47 Taphophile13:
Some of my textbooks came loose-leaf. I have them as unbound paper books. Click on "Show complete list."

50Taphophile13
Jul 2, 2015, 4:58pm Top

I'm guessing that perfumes and bobcats just go under Other.

51AnnaClaire
Jul 2, 2015, 5:02pm Top

>50 Taphophile13:
Part of why I'd like the legitimately (if tenuously) Book-Like Objects classified a little more specifically.

52Edward
Jul 2, 2015, 5:05pm Top

I'm really pleased to see this feature. I can see I'll have a lot of data to correct in my own catalogue, but that's mostly because I used to enter a lot of e-books from print book records, so I can't blame LT for thinking I own the print.

Is the Media list on profile pages using the names of second-tier media types verbatim? I've catalogued one "Sound Recording > Digital file" and one "Video Recording > Digital file", and my profile shows: "Media ... Digital file (1), Digital file (1)".

53timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 5:15pm Top

I have so many that are just plain wrong! I'm just going to ignore this feature, because fixing my library would take too long.

Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about how they're wrong.

Would having all the hardcover and paperbacks shown as "paper book" fix it for you?

>47 Taphophile13:

Unbound?

>48 AnnaClaire:

We need someone to make a collection of things like this, so I can see how the data breaks down. We can add it. I'm unsure about "cards," though since playing cards and postcards are very dissimilar.

54timspalding
Jul 2, 2015, 5:15pm Top

Is the Media list on profile pages using the names of second-tier media types verbatim? I've catalogued one "Sound Recording > Digital file" and one "Video Recording > Digital file", and my profile shows: "Media ... Digital file (1), Digital file (1)".

I'm not seeing any on your profile.

55AnnieMod
Jul 2, 2015, 5:24pm Top

I really wish there was a Power Edit so I can move books easily into the correct category (yes I know, I read what you said but I have a lot of my manual entries that are set at "Book" when there are full collections I wish I can just shift to Hardcover.)

56Edward
Jul 2, 2015, 5:25pm Top

54 timspalding: My library is set as private. Here's what the profile looks like to me:

57jjwilson61
Jul 2, 2015, 5:39pm Top

>48 AnnaClaire: I'd say that books of postcards should be a sub-category of Paper Book since they are made of paper.

58Lyndatrue
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 6:32pm Top

>34 timspalding: In preface, I'm doing this on Windows 7.

I tried (just now) with another browser (Chrome, and I LOATHE Chrome, but I made the sacrifice), and it worked just fine. Then I went back to Firefox, and tried a new odd choice, and it also worked.

http://www.librarything.com/work/14985548/details/108843904

I await the ability to add media. I'd group certain items that are various printed matter under Ephemera (under Other).

ETA: I had about 50 additional lines which didn't survive the downtime. I'm hoping to replicate what I'd done, or else to find that the notes are unimportant, because it's fixed now.

59MarthaJeanne
Jul 2, 2015, 6:02pm Top

>53 timspalding: I would prefer everything listed as unknown. I do not have audiobooks, DVDs or videos entered. Half my eBooks are listed as paperbooks. None of the entries can be considered to be right withour checking.

60Lyndatrue
Jul 2, 2015, 6:38pm Top

>34 timspalding: I've found that IFF I use the "Show full list" feature, and then select the item I want, and save it, it works as expected (using Firefox). It does not save unless I do it this way.

I'm tempted to post a bug report; on the other hand, I'm using FF 28.0, which is not the latest (and it's unlikely I'll move unless forced to--perhaps not even then).

61staffordcastle
Jul 2, 2015, 6:46pm Top

Seconding AnnaClaire in >48 AnnaClaire:; I would like Postcard Books to be a separate thing. Otherwise I would put them under Paper Books > Paperback.

62aulsmith
Jul 2, 2015, 6:51pm Top

Postcard books.

To me, if you're not taking the cards out and sending them, they act just like art books. You keep them for the pictures. So I would say Paper books. (But I'm sure there are people who still go the to trouble of cataloging a book they are going to take apart and mail all over the world, so I guess that won't feel right to them

63geoffmiles
Jul 2, 2015, 6:59pm Top

Could I suggest adding as categories

Paper Book > Hardcover in Slipcase
Paper Book > Hardcover(s) in Boxed Set
and maybe
Paper Book > Paperback(s) in Boxed Set.

I don’t know how useful people would find these generally, but as a collector of Folio Society books, I use them all the time.

64Taphophile13
Jul 2, 2015, 7:04pm Top

>63 geoffmiles:
I like the Hardcover in Slipcase; the others would not be as useful for me but others may like them.

65lilithcat
Jul 2, 2015, 7:17pm Top

I am trying to understand the difference between "count" and "total" on the linked summary page, and what each means. And the numbers there don't seem to add up. The numbers for each sub-category of "Paper book" are the same under "count" and "total", so I would have expected the category "Paper book" to show the same number, but it doesn't, and under neither "count" nor "total" is the number the sum of the sub-categories.

I'm confused.

66lilithcat
Jul 2, 2015, 7:29pm Top

I have three books (http://www.librarything.com/catalog/lilithcat&deepsearch=may+it+please+the+c...) that are both hard cover books and cassettes, boxed together. Each has a different media given (well, two are the same but one has a further sub-category).

Question 1: why the difference?
Question 2: will there be any way to list multiple media types in cases like this?

67sturlington
Jul 2, 2015, 7:33pm Top

>63 geoffmiles: I would find all three of those categories useful. I was struggling with how to describe them.

68JBD1
Jul 2, 2015, 7:56pm Top

So, overall, this is a fascinating feature! However, there's definitely some wonky stuff going on, and I think it may be necessary to hide or at least not display this for, say, Legacy Libraries (Jefferson, for example, certainly didn't have 51 ebooks - http://www.librarything.com/profile/thomasjefferson; Adams didn't have 22 ebooks - http://www.librarything.com/profile/johnadams, &c. I spot-checked a bunch of them and almost all list ebooks when ). I don't know quite how these records are getting noted as ebooks, but it's certainly incorrect and misleading, and to have that so prominently on the profile page isn't great and will lead, I think, to much confusion.

69bientrey
Jul 2, 2015, 8:02pm Top

I cataloged this cd/dvd edition of the Rolling Stones, Get yer ya-ya's out! (2009) following the phase 1 announcement, https://www.librarything.com/work/8246208/book/119645157
I used Library of Congress as the cataloging source. LT assigned it a dvd format, when actually is should be cd. I hope LT has thought about the changes that will have to be made in the physical description area to accommodate the new formats, otherwise, much confusion will ensue. For instance, the physical description for this work should read: 3 sound discs : digital ; 4 3/4 in. + 1 videodisc (sd., col. ; 4 3/4 in.) One may argue or disagree with LC cataloging practice when it comes to description of works, but LT will need to provide something at least as informative as LC has done. I put the description in the Comments field for the time being. Perhaps TinyCat has addressed this problem?

70elenchus
Jul 2, 2015, 8:45pm Top

>69 bientrey:

I'd think that would qualify as Multimedia, a current option in the list of formats. Putting the details in the Comments field is suitable for the various permutations possible.

71PhaedraB
Jul 2, 2015, 10:12pm Top

I have a lot of tarot cards cataloged, so Cards would be very useful for me. Many of them are boxed sets with books. I'd be willing to do those as multimedia, but my pony would be able to indicate sets and their components.

72PhaedraB
Jul 2, 2015, 10:22pm Top

I have a lot of stuff on audio tape, so I wish that format was on the short list. Some of us have old libraries.

Also, when you click on Show Complete List, the drop down disappears, you have to click on it and start all over again. Mildly annoying when you have a lot of things on the long list.

73bientrey
Jul 2, 2015, 10:42pm Top

>70 elenchus: elenchus:

Thank you. Yes, Multimedia can work for this box set. I prefer Sound Recording > CD. However, I was pointing out that LTs physical description area needs to accurately convey information regarding the just added formats. I do not like putting this type of information in the Comments field unless it is absolutely necessary. Just curious about how TinyCat will handle and display physical description of any sort.

74lquilter
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 11:27pm Top

(1) Big thumbs up.

(2) Other possible media:

Pattern books and patterns are a different medium, along the line of sheet music.

Also, I have these fold-out charts -- field guides, laminated -- that are not maps. One was classified as a map. I changed it to a "poster" but that's not quite right either.

Opera CD sets are audiorecordings + book. But mixed media isn't quite right. So are a lot of children's book + recording sets sometimes, as in Sandra Boynton, there is a CD with music; other times, there is a CD with the book recorded and the book itself. There's a bit more one could do with mixed media: Ideally, for instance, selecting would then enable someone to describe or choose items.

(3) In terms of seeing the full list -- it would be nice if types that one has previously added or have in the catalog would show up as the defaults, and all the others in the "full list". Right now the default appears to be pre-selected, but it's annoying to have to keep clicking "full list", then clicking again to view, in order to see, for instance, "comics" and "zines".

75elenchus
Edited: Jul 2, 2015, 11:27pm Top

>72 PhaedraB: when you click on Show Complete List, the drop down disappears, you have to click on it and start all over again.

And related, it doesn't save my preference for the complete list (rather than the short list). I have to select it each time I re-visit the Your books module. Would be nice if it remembered my last setting.

76schibboleth46
Jul 3, 2015, 2:30am Top

is there any way to get rid of this annoying "media" display (which suddenly appeared on my profile and which is completely inaccurate by the way and thus dispensable!) - or at least to disable this feature (like one can disable "reviews" or "favourite authors").
because all the diversity i need is covered by the feature "collections".

thanks a lot

schibboleth46

77ScarletBea
Jul 3, 2015, 3:40am Top

I second those that wish there was a power edit feature to correct the multiple wrong entries :/

78reading_fox
Jul 3, 2015, 6:47am Top

Love that it shows up on Addbooks now. Really helps. Will delve in to the rest later.

79timspalding
Jul 3, 2015, 7:57am Top

Okay, the problems with editing from the "Edit your book" page have been fixed. When I fixed it the last time I broke it for something else, but it's good now.

My library is set as private. Here's what the profile looks like to me:

It doesn't show either collections or media for me. Those are only visible when you're signed in. I can see from your URL that you are.

I await the ability to add media. I'd group certain items that are various printed matter under Ephemera (under Other).

You can add media. Go to the menu and select "Add media."

I am trying to understand the difference between "count" and "total" on the linked summary page, and what each means. And the numbers there don't seem to add up. The numbers for each sub-category of "Paper book" are the same under "count" and "total", so I would have expected the category "Paper book" to show the same number, but it doesn't, and under neither "count" nor "total" is the number the sum of the sub-categories.

So, "count" is the number that are assigned to that level, and "total" is that number and all the level beneath it. You have 1,012 books that are classified only "Paper Book." But the total for it includes the 1,012, plus the 1,540 paperbacks, etc.

Question 1: why the difference?

Short answer: Because the underlying data is this way.
Long answer: We'd need to look at the MARC records. CCatalfo, if you have time, this might be a good example of the process.

Question 2: will there be any way to list multiple media types in cases like this?

Short answer: Not at present. Go for "Multimedia."

>69 bientrey:

CCatalfo, can you explore why that was miscategorized?

Just curious about how TinyCat will handle and display physical description of any sort.

CCatalfo, we should consider.

Also, when you click on Show Complete List, the drop down disappears, you have to click on it and start all over again. Mildly annoying when you have a lot of things on the long list.

Okay, I've put something in place that changes that. Let me know what you think.

I don’t know how useful people would find these generally, but as a collector of Folio Society books, I use them all the time.

So, overall, this is a fascinating feature! However, there's definitely some wonky stuff going on, and I think it may be necessary to hide or at least not display

(3) In terms of seeing the full list -- it would be nice if types that one has previously added or have in the catalog would show up as the defaults, and all the others in the "full list". Right now the default appears to be pre-selected, but it's annoying to have to keep clicking "full list", then clicking again to view, in order to see, for instance, "comics" and "zines".


Okay, I'll look into that.

I would prefer everything listed as unknown. I do not have audiobooks, DVDs or videos entered. Half my eBooks are listed as paperbooks. None of the entries can be considered to be right withour checking.

So, overall, this is a fascinating feature! However, there's definitely some wonky stuff going on, and I think it may be necessary to hide or at least not display

is there any way to get rid of this annoying "media" display (which suddenly appeared on my profile and which is completely inaccurate by the way and thus dispensable!) - or at least to disable this feature (like one can disable "reviews" or "favourite authors").

So, I think we need a "turn off" feature. (This was always planned, btw. But I don't want to let people turn something off immediately, or we lose input.) I think the answer is to do it by "levels." That is, you can restrict it to just the first level (Book, Sound Recording, Visual Recording, etc.), the second level or no level at all.

Will this satisfy. I'm loathe to allow you to selectively turn off every single potential format, which would then roll up to the next level, presumably. There's too many ways to mess that up, I think.

80lquilter
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 11:42am Top

I was interested to see that UNESCO defines "pamphlet" as less than 48 pages. "In order to count as a pamphlet, UNESCO requires a publication (other than a periodical) to have "at least 5 but not more than 48 pages exclusive of the cover pages"; a longer item is a book.1" -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamphlet

Perhaps we ought to have a wikithing page defining these terms and a link to that page on the "add media" list.

81AnnaClaire
Jul 3, 2015, 9:30am Top

>74 lquilter: pattern books
Yeah, I have a number of knitting pattern booklets and was on the fence about what to do with them. A few of them are borderline Book > Paperback (Designer's Choice: The Viking Knits Collection, for example) but others, while technically classifiable as paperbacks don't really belong there. Calling them paperbacks would be like putting a term paper in one of those report covers from Staples and calling that a paperback.

82Lyndatrue
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 10:45am Top

I've called my lovely old patterns "Ephemera" (and I'm so happy to say that I'm able to add a media category now). I admit that I'm just compulsive enough that I will probably go through *all* my current entries here (less than 600) and edit each of them. I'm still trying to decide whether this is actually *useful* to me or not, but I'm certainly willing to play along, and make sure that everything in my current library is correctly identified.

I will say, though, that when I went to the bother of tagging each and every ebook with "kindle" that I was surprised to see that one of my ebooks was identified as unknown (it was my first change, so it's already fixed). It's a book only owned by perhaps one other person, and I suspect that things with less data are more easily misidentified by this process.

At least all my "Unknown" items are now identified, for good or ill.

83lilithcat
Jul 3, 2015, 10:47am Top

>79 timspalding:

Question 2: will there be any way to list multiple media types in cases like this?

Short answer: Not at present. Go for "Multimedia."


I don't like the idea of using "Multimedia" because that's actually less information than there is at present. It doesn't tell me what media, and to me there's a difference between an item that is a book and a CD, and an item that is a DVD and a libretto.

For the nonce, I expect I'll just pick the one that feels primary, but I do hope that at some point in the future (two weeks?) we'll be able to list more than one.

84SylviaC
Jul 3, 2015, 10:57am Top

I'm very happy to see this finally being released! I've been waiting years for it. Hopefully the ability to use Power Edit will come soon, as I'm finding a high proportion of my books have to have the media data either corrected or fine tuned.

85aulsmith
Jul 3, 2015, 11:16am Top

I started a new group to discuss where one might put out-liers. I was losing track of the discussions here and this way we can separate them out. If Tim still wants to discuss specifics here, maybe consensus / non-consensus solutions could be posted in the group?

86ccatalfo
Jul 3, 2015, 12:41pm Top

>69 bientrey: >79 timspalding:

I've looked over the raw MARC for that one but I need to add some more detailed logging as to why our format-detection code picked DVD over Audio CD. It may very well be something as simple/stupid as looping over the possibilities and saying 1. Oh, it's a CD! and then later on 2. Oh, it's a DVD! and then sticking with that last one. Or, more likely, could just be some logic that could use some fine tuning.

I'll work on getting that better metadata/logging going. I'm sure we're going to need it as folks find problems and have questions.

87_Zoe_
Jul 3, 2015, 1:29pm Top

I don't know why this is considered the second-most important item on our profiles; it seems like the sort of data that I'd expect to find in statistics. The other profile categories generally consist of information that we created deliberately.

88Edward
Jul 3, 2015, 1:36pm Top

79 timspalding: Sorry, I don't think I was clear about what the problem is. The problem is that the list is displaying two different media types (digital sound file and digital video file) with the same name ("Digital file").

89JBD1
Jul 3, 2015, 1:48pm Top

>87 _Zoe_: - I've got to agree here. I think at the moment, given the tenuousness of the data, this is being presented a bit too prominently on profile pages (viz. my comment above at 68 about LLs, where the information is just wrong), and would certainly support it being moved off to someplace less front-and-center ...

90legallypuzzled
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 2:58pm Top

I'm sure others have already come up with this, but if you have information in the Publication field (like "paperback" and "hardcover"/"hardback") and want to see where the media designation is not set correctly in some cases:

Media:Paperback but Publication=Hardcover/Hardback
https://www.librarything.com/catalog_bottom.php?view=MEMBERNAME&formatexact=...

Media:Hardcover but Publication=Paperback
https://www.librarything.com/catalog_bottom.php?view=MEMBERNAME&formatexact=...

Edit: Well, this is one time when MEMBERNAME doesn't properly get interpreted. So you'll have to copy and paste the URLs, changing MEMBERNAME to, obviously, your user name.

91timspalding
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 3:13pm Top

>87 _Zoe_: >89 JBD1:

So, it's not media per se that's up there, but the high-level categories. The theory is that these high-level categories are elemental collections and that this will be even more true when we allow music and DVDs. That is, the question "Do they have mostly books, or is it mostly music?" seems basic to me.

Indeed, as we start allowing other media, I expect that we'll hear a lot of members saying that people's libraries are unnaturally big, when really it's all bullshit CDs, or whatever, and that isn't fair. This is a hedge against that. For members who think books are the only real thing, this offers a quick way to assess and access that.

In both of your cases, all you have are Paper books and Ebooks. Those seems like basic information to me.

That said, I think it's reasonable to allow members to change this. I need to decide on the model. I proposed that members be able to "chop back the tree"--to use only certain levels--and got no reply. Here, perhaps that's not enough, and we need the ability to pick things manually.

92MarthaJeanne
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 3:12pm Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

93_Zoe_
Jul 3, 2015, 3:26pm Top

>91 timspalding: This seems like you're pushing people to catalogue more non-book items, by making it such a prominent part of our libraries. I'd prefer to see LT accommodating non-book items while maintaining the basic assumption that people will catalogue mostly books.

The issue of how big people's libraries are is pretty irrelevant, especially with some people cataloguing short stories anyway.

94JBD1
Jul 3, 2015, 3:39pm Top

>91 timspalding: - I'm not so much worried about my own (in fact not all, since I edited mine already). I'm worried about incorrect and misleading data showing up there (see mine in 68 - John Adams had no ebooks!).

95PhaedraB
Jul 3, 2015, 4:54pm Top

None of my ebooks got classed as ebooks, but one hardcover did. None of my comics got marked as comics. And some of my journals got categorized as hardcovers. So, something to keep me busy for a few days.

Mercifully, partly because I knew this feature was coming eventually and partly because I'm just OCD that way, I've been including format in the publishing info, so it's comparatively easy for me to determine if the two fields are in agreement.

96timspalding
Jul 3, 2015, 4:54pm Top

Okay, I've moved "media" a few spots down.

97timspalding
Jul 3, 2015, 4:55pm Top

>95 PhaedraB:

Mark your ebooks as ebooks in the catalog, adding in the report that it was an error, and we'll look at it. Frankly, I think the problem is not a technical one, but simply that we didn't used to show the format, so members added books that were the wrong format.

98eromsted
Jul 3, 2015, 5:08pm Top

Could we get media as a "limit by" field in the advanced catalog search?

99jcbrunner
Jul 3, 2015, 5:20pm Top

I find the naming choice "Paper book" really weird and would prefer to see it expanded one level to at least "Hardcover" and "Paperback".

100AnnaClaire
Jul 3, 2015, 5:31pm Top

>99 jcbrunner:
I suppose "Paper Book" was what most normal readers would call a "print book" -- a category that deliberately includes both hardcover and paperbacks (as well, I suppose, as those not-bound three-hole-punch "binder-ready" textbooks I find so annoying) but excludes audiobooks and e-books.

This raises the interesting, if mostly rhetorical, question of where illuminated manuscripts belong. And perhaps the less rhetorical question of where the crayon-on-construction-paper creations I remember being so proud of when I was in grade school. (And do kids still make those?)

101ScarletBea
Jul 3, 2015, 5:33pm Top

>96 timspalding:
I don't see Media on my profile ?? Not where you're showing - I could only see it in 'Your books'.

102jcbrunner
Jul 3, 2015, 5:38pm Top

>100 AnnaClaire: "Print book" would be a nice reference to Gutenberg!

103AnnaClaire
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 5:42pm Top

>102 jcbrunner:
And maybe Caxton? ;-)

104jjwilson61
Jul 3, 2015, 5:42pm Top

>102 jcbrunner: You only have books (and 1 unknown) so it doesn't add the section to your profile. Me too.

105Maddz
Jul 3, 2015, 5:44pm Top

Hmm. I like this feature, but how should we handle the same book in multiple formats? I have a number of books that I own both as a paper copy and the ebook, or I have a hardback and a paperback. They often have the same ISBN or no ISBN in the case of really old editions.

106_Zoe_
Jul 3, 2015, 5:45pm Top

107TimSharrock
Jul 3, 2015, 5:50pm Top

>97 timspalding: didn't used to show the format, so members added books that were the wrong format.

so it would be even more worthwhile to be able to "switch the source record" on an existing book in LT without losing reviews, tags etc

108JBD1
Jul 3, 2015, 5:50pm Top

I'm still confused on where some of these completely bizarre media determinations are coming from:

Ben Franklin's catalog shows 1,047 "ebooks": http://www.librarything.com/catalog/benjaminfranklin&format=1.3 - this is, of course, completely ridiculous. Most of these, just spot-checking them, were added from library records - is it just picking up digitized copies and now showing them as ebooks? That appears like it may be the case, and if so, it's really unfortunate that it's only getting displayed now. Obviously they wouldn't have been added that way if they were going to show up as ebooks on a profile page, in the catalog, &c. Even if it is true that the records added were drawn somehow from digitized copies, it's incorrect to say that this is what the person's library contained, which is how it's currently being presented.

I think I'm going to have to plead (please, pretty please, with a cherry on top?!) that this whole feature be hidden for Legacy Libraries; even if there were a power-edit feature to deal with this, it seems like a very great waste of time to have to go back through and convert "ebook" records to their correct format for the several hundred cases where this data is now rearing its head years after the fact ...

109Maddz
Jul 3, 2015, 5:59pm Top

I'm working on my iPad, and I can't seem to find a PDF media type? Strictly speaking, they're not ebooks - they often don't display correctly if you try and read them as an ebook.

110aulsmith
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 6:06pm Top

>108 JBD1: The Legacy Library people picked a record that was for an e-copy of the original book. There are far more records for e-copies and microfilm of old books, then there are records for the actual book. (In library jargon: Libraries are cataloging manifestations, not works. There was no indication of the format of the manifestation on the record that the LL cataloger grabbed. Just statistically it was much more likely to be an e-copy than the print book.)

>109 Maddz: E-book is any format that requires a computer program to read it whether the program is Adobe PDF reader, Kindle software, an Epub reader, etc.

Edited for typos

111JBD1
Jul 3, 2015, 6:12pm Top

>110 aulsmith: - Presumably that is what happened, yes. But obviously it makes no sense to display it that way (hence my plea to hide this :-)

112LolaWalser
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 6:17pm Top

>111 JBD1:

I agree. Looks bad and, speaking out of sheer self-interest as someone who's worked on some LLs and feels responsibility for their appearance: it would be hellish to have to go back and correct entries one by one.

113MarthaJeanne
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 6:23pm Top

Some of the books that were listed in my library as audio books I cannot imagine ever having been recorded. So I don't think this is all bad imports.

An amazing number of my recent books in German are listed as eBooks, although they are paper - often hardbacks. They were certainly searched by ISBN. And most of my eBooks aren't listed as that.

The books listed as printed music include 'The Music man (Novel)', '1000 Tips für die Gitarre: (von A - Z)'.

'Tomie dePaola's book of Christmas carols' which I no longer own, may or may not have the music printed in it, but is really a child's picture book with lovely illustrations. 'The Cat in the Hat Song Book' belongs as much with children's books as music books. We certainly have always kept it with the other Seuss books.

Leaves two music books that I suppose could be labeled printed music rather than paper book - but then what about all our other hymnals, etc, that aren't labeled as printed music?

The sooner this misinformation can be gotten rid of, the better.

114KarenElissa
Jul 3, 2015, 6:26pm Top

>79 timspalding: Also, when you click on Show Complete List, the drop down disappears, you have to click on it and start all over again. Mildly annoying when you have a lot of things on the long list.

Okay, I've put something in place that changes that. Let me know what you think.


I don't think I've seen any changes in this.

115rgurskey
Jul 3, 2015, 6:27pm Top

Incorrect classifications:

All my Mad Magazines were classed as Paperbacks rather than Magazine
Most of my issues of Analog Science Fiction / Science Fact were classed Unknown rather than Magazine.

Power edit would certainly be useful, since all of these have the tag Magazine, and I could fix them quickly.

116ccatalfo
Jul 3, 2015, 7:26pm Top

>98 eromsted: Yes, as a matter of fact I believe we've actually done that but we just need to push out the change.

117aulsmith
Jul 3, 2015, 7:43pm Top

>114 KarenElissa: Yes, this is still an on-going problem.

Also, if you add a book, and then go to the edit page, it loses the format that you chose from the add selections and defaults to unknown, which then has to be changed back to the correct format.

>113 MarthaJeanne: I seem to remember something weird in the cataloging rules that made hymn books Book format. Otherwise, things that have more pages of music than text would generally have the format scores if you got the record from a library source.

>111 JBD1: >112 LolaWalser: Legacy Libraries - We should be able to fix them fairly fast when we get power edit for format (which better be on the table. I certainly can't do all mine manually)

118PhaedraB
Jul 3, 2015, 8:07pm Top

>117 aulsmith: I'm doing mine manually, although power edit would be a huge help. Then again, I have too much time on my hands and I love a good project.

119PhaedraB
Jul 3, 2015, 8:10pm Top

>97 timspalding: "...so members added books that were the wrong format."

You wound me, sir.

120bibliorex
Jul 3, 2015, 8:11pm Top

Tim, apologies if you've already addressed this elsewhere in the thread, but it's a lot to dig through. I have a question about some books that appear to be "missing," or at least somehow unaccounted for.

The relevant part of my media lists:

Book 265 5,896
Paper Book 5 5,548
Paperback 4,458 4,458
Hardcover 1,084 1,084
Unbound 1 1
Ebook 83 83

When I click on those 5 Paper Books, it takes me to: Format: Paper Book (exact) x
No books found.

All the other categories of works bring me to the list of relevant works in my catalog and I can edit them, or not, from there. But not those 5 Paper Books. Any ideas?

121PhaedraB
Jul 3, 2015, 8:11pm Top

Just found a tarot deck listed as an ebook. I am quite certain it didn't get imported that way. Harrumph.

122PhaedraB
Jul 3, 2015, 8:47pm Top

While in catalog view, I tried to change something from Unknown to Not set. Not set doesn't stick. Is it supposed to?

123aulsmith
Jul 3, 2015, 9:00pm Top

Selecting "Not Set" makes the format "Unknown", as far as I can tell.

124krazy4katz
Jul 3, 2015, 9:12pm Top

A lot of my books are wrong, which is too bad since I have an "ebook" tag. I don't know what to suggest to remedy this other than to fix each book manually as was discussed earlier.

125timspalding
Jul 3, 2015, 9:43pm Top

Note for self: Read to 119.

Please note: ccatalfo and I are going to be redoing some of the calculations on Monday. Nothing you've changed, or indeed saved, will be affected, but books that are unchanged might be.

126timspalding
Edited: Jul 3, 2015, 9:44pm Top

>120 bibliorex:

When I click on those 5 Paper Books, it takes me to: Format: Paper Book (exact) x
No books found.


Interesting. Okay, I'm looking into it now.

127timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 12:36am Top

>120 bibliorex: Fixed. Thanks.

128timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 12:40am Top

>121 PhaedraB:

Can you link me to it?

129r.orrison
Jul 4, 2015, 3:04am Top

About half of my Ordnance Survey maps were marked as Paperback. I've fixed and reported the error on about half of them. You can find them with
https://www.librarything.com/catalog/r.orrison&deepsearch=author%3A+%22Ordna...

Advanced Search field options should include media. Media should be available in the dropdown as a specific field to be able to search, and chosing "Any fields" should include media. I wanted to add Media=Paperback to that search above, but couldn't.

130timspalding
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 3:19am Top

I've added a new "Format" page to the settings pages.

See https://www.librarything.com/settings/format

As of now it has only one capacity—to change what's shown on your profile:



Advanced Search field options should include media

Yes. It's actually in the index now. But we haven't trumpeted it, and we need to add it to the advanced search, indeed.

131gsc55
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 4:05am Top

Tim
Video Recording is SO AACR2. Is there not another generic for Visual Media, maybe visual recording (mirrors sound recording)

132timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 4:25am Top

133schibboleth46
Jul 4, 2015, 4:28am Top

# TimSpalding

Thanks a lot, Mr Spalding, for giving us the opportunity to hide this new media feature; now it is next to perfect.
Another suggestion: why not leave it to the user to hide more features (if he wants to)? e.g. my profile shows thre features i do not want to use, and so you can see "reviews: none", groups: none" etc.. why not just hide these features (and instead expand others)? it would save space and would give the profile page a clearer structure.

134gsc55
Jul 4, 2015, 4:49am Top

As we speak - great response & great improvements

135andyl
Jul 4, 2015, 6:02am Top

Tim,

On the edit page (example http://www.librarything.com/work/edit/119404011) you don't have the right style for the Format dropdown. There is no background color applied like all the other input fields.

136theabbottsmusick
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 6:32am Top

>1 timspalding: Some members are going to be surprised and/or distressed by their media.

Around 600 manual entries, looks like 13 don't need editing ;-( - but, Hey!, it's all worth it! Thanks, Tim.

137abbottthomas
Jul 4, 2015, 6:45am Top

I have many theatre and opera programmes catalogued. It looks like I have the choice of 'paperback' (all have soft paper covers), 'pamphlet' or 'magazine'. To add 'program(me)' as a media category is probably getting away from the media concept, although 'comic book' and 'zine' are in the list.

I am veering towards 'pamphlet' for most with 'paper book' or 'paperback' for some of the more substantial festival programmes. Any ideas?

139lilithcat
Jul 4, 2015, 9:36am Top

I have this book, which is an art exhibition catalog on CD. It currently shows media as "unknown", but when I went to edit that, I found that the only options for "CD" are nested under Sound Recordings and Audiobooks. This is neither.

140manasquan
Jul 4, 2015, 9:46am Top

LT's libraries do not have trouble identifying the books of maps, gazateers etc, in my library, but I find I need to enter ISBNs and the complete data for individual maps I own. Are there public libraries which can identify maps, charts etc?

141lquilter
Jul 4, 2015, 11:03am Top

> 131, 132 ... actually "audiovisual recording" is better, because typically these capture both A & V.

142abbottthomas
Jul 4, 2015, 11:33am Top

I have just learned something from Wikipedia - "In the library technical sense, a "magazine" paginates with each issue starting at page three. Likewise, in the technical sense a "journal" has continuous pagination throughout a volume. Thus Business Week, which starts each issue anew with page one, is a magazine, but the Journal of Business Communication, which starts each volume with the winter issue and continues the same sequence of pagination throughout the coterminous year, is a journal."

Another poster suggested a wiki page giving authentic librarian definitions of the various manifestations - any chance of that?

143lquilter
Jul 4, 2015, 11:40am Top

Well, there's this page already created for the LT media & format taxonomy: http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/The_LibraryThing_Media_Taxonomy

and I have now linked to and created "Media and format definitions" which I will begin populating right away:

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/Media_and_format_definitions

144lquilter
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 11:52am Top

> 142, do you have the wikipedia link? can you add it to wikithing or post it here?

eta: never mind, found it.

145saltmanz
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 11:53am Top

This is pretty cool. I have a lot of editing to do, mostly of two types: removing the media format from all wishlist/unowned entries, and setting the format for the 1,000+ comic books that were entered manually. (I'll be waiting for Power Edit functionality to tackle that.)

Bug-wise, the only issue I've really encountered is a number of my 70s-80s mass market paperbacks being marked as hardcover. For the record, I do all my entry by ISBN when possible, and have always made sure to grab the correct edition based on the publication information. So I definitely made sure these were the paperback editions when I entered them, yet media format saw them as hardcovers. I reported them when I changed the, of course.

Up for discussion, and speaking of the aforementioned comic books: I only had a couple of comics automatically marked as such, a couple of graphic novels (as opposed to the use single issue "floppies".) But most of my graphic novels/collected volumes were automatically marked as "paperback". I'm curious where the line falls between "comic" and "paperback". (Realizing that format refers to the physical form, as opposed to the content.)

146abbottthomas
Jul 4, 2015, 12:03pm Top

>143 lquilter: Thank you very much ;-)

147timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 12:08pm Top

>133 schibboleth46: Another suggestion: why not leave it to the user to hide more features (if he wants to)? e.g. my profile shows thre features i do not want to use, and so you can see "reviews: none", groups: none" etc.. why not just hide these features (and instead expand others)? it would save space and would give the profile page a clearer structure.

So, eventually I'd like to get the profile to be more changeable. At the same time, there's virtue in things on a site looking and working the same. Think Facebook vs. MySpace.

>135 andyl: On the edit page (example http://www.librarything.com/work/edit/119404011) you don't have the right style for the Format dropdown. There is no background color applied like all the other input fields.

Thank you. Good catch.

>137 abbottthomas: I have many theatre and opera programmes catalogued. It looks like I have the choice of 'paperback' (all have soft paper covers), 'pamphlet' or 'magazine'. To add 'program(me)' as a media category is probably getting away from the media concept, although 'comic book' and 'zine' are in the list.

I hear you. It's a mixture between media and something like genre, and intended to be a starter not an answer for all. I suggest you add yours manually.

In general, I'm not hearing a case for anything that's restricted and general and just plain missing. There are a lot of things that, in a larger taxonomy, would obviously have a place. (And some of the ones we have there—like Zine—are probably also for that larger taxonomy.)

Maybe "pamphlet." JBD1, you were largely responsible for this taxonomy. What do you think about some of these ideas?

I have this book, which is an art exhibition catalog on CD. It currently shows media as "unknown", but when I went to edit that, I found that the only options for "CD" are nested under Sound Recordings and Audiobooks. This is neither.

I'd classify that under "software." But, yes, we haven't spelled out all the various software types. We probably should, as people are going to want to add videogames.

>141 lquilter:

Done. I'm that guy in the Aesop fables, with the son and the donkey.

148timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 12:08pm Top

Never mind, I'm going with "Video recording."

149DanieXJ
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 12:14pm Top

>145 saltmanz: Comic books are the Comic book issues (perhaps that could be added to the name? Comic Issue, or Comic book issue?).

The collections of issues (the ones with Volume numbers sometimes and that are bound and aren't monthlies/weeklies) are traditionally considered Hardcover or Paperback books, not 'Comic Books'.

150newcrossbooks
Jul 4, 2015, 12:20pm Top

What about newspapers?
Where do they fit in the LT media & format taxonomy?

151bibliorex
Jul 4, 2015, 12:23pm Top

>127 timspalding:: Thanks for your hard work, Tim! That fixed it.

152timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 12:24pm Top

>150 newcrossbooks:

We should start a thread for all proposals. The trick is, everyone would vote up all the changes. Individually, they aren't a problem, but all together… well, we've already proposed as many formats as there are now.

153Taphophile13
Jul 4, 2015, 12:26pm Top

re: http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/Media_and_format_definitions

I just learned that a pamphlet has at least five pages—so that means the four page laminated "pamphlets" I have aren't really that. FWIW, I consider them folders.

154casvelyn
Jul 4, 2015, 12:29pm Top

What about differentiation between large print and regular print books?

Of course, then you'd need to differentiate between large print hardcovers and large print paperbacks, so maybe not such a good idea. But every public library I've ever used has noted when a book is large print as part of the format notation.

155jjwilson61
Jul 4, 2015, 12:31pm Top

Do we really want to use technical library cataloging definitions for LT, especially when they don't match up to how the terms are used in general? I don't think the distinction between journal and magazine is one that most users are going to know or care about.

156JBD1
Jul 4, 2015, 12:37pm Top

>147 timspalding: - Yeah, I think for those genre-type distinctions when we worked on this taxonomy (if I remember correctly, it being quite a long time ago now!) we decided to err on the side of sticking with physical distinctions rather than getting into the contents. So things like program(me)s and the like would very likely fall under "pamphlet" without much trouble. And I agree with >155 jjwilson61: - I think we probably need to stick with terms as they are generally used ...

157timspalding
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 12:40pm Top

Yes, if you're interested in the nitty-gritty, see the developing pages:

* The LibraryThing Media Taxonomy http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/The_LibraryThing_Media_Taxonomy
* Media and format definitions http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/Media_and_format_definitions

I've made it clear there, however, that while the technical, professional cataloging distinctions are helpful and interesting and may guide members, members are free to implement the system as they see fit. In other words, there is to be no complaining about how other people classify their media. This bobcat is a zine.

158JBD1
Jul 4, 2015, 12:45pm Top

>157 timspalding: This bobcat is a zine.

I just spit water everywhere. Thank you. :-)

159timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 12:46pm Top

:)

160timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 12:47pm Top

One way of knowing what to "promote" to official status is going to be analyzing what user-defined stuff gets used and what does not.

161ABVR
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 12:52pm Top

Rendered obsolete while it was being written :-)

162Lyndatrue
Jul 4, 2015, 3:16pm Top

timspalding, I have a new request, although I'll be understanding if you can't do it. Is there a way I can mark my library so that even the books I haven't changed do not get changed on Monday? I've looked at many of the books that you say are paperbacks, and they are. I'm content with leaving them that way. I'd really like to opt out of further changes on the format for my books.

163timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 3:24pm Top

>162 Lyndatrue:

No, sorry. That's what comes of this being a beta feature. I suspect none of yours will change, though.

164timspalding
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 4:01pm Top

You can now turn it off entirely, make it viewable only by you, or keep it as is.

Go to: https://www.librarything.com/settings/format

It looks like this:



Note: I havne't done the fancy thing whereby, when you turn it off, it disables the other parts visually. I'm leaving that to LT_ammar, who's been doing this a bunch and has some code I'm not familiar with.

165Lyndatrue
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 3:46pm Top

>163 timspalding: It's okay. Yes, I know that my LT library is composed almost entirely of actual books (which will probably save me).

Here's something I don't understand though. In the "Count" column for "Paper Book" I have 170 (with the "Total" listed as 523, which is correct). I'm trying to remove ALL the Paper Book entries, having each item moved into its appropriate third level, or into Other. Either "Paper Book" should be the same number as the "Total" or it should decrement when I move a book from being just in the Paper Book media entry, and moving it to either Hardcover, Paperback, or out of the Book category entirely.

Please explain. Use small words, I'm working in 100+ heat, and my brain is tired. Thank you.

Edited to say: Yes, I just looked at the LT Taxonomy list.

166timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 3:46pm Top

>165 Lyndatrue:

It should decrement. The "Count" number is the number that are EXACTLY at that level—the number that are classified as "Paper books." The "Total" number is that, plus all the stuff at a lower level, like "Paperback," "Hardcover," etc.

Are you finding it's not decrementing?

I'm working in 100+ heat, and my brain is tired. Thank you.

Sorry. It's nice in Maine :)

167JBD1
Jul 4, 2015, 3:51pm Top

>164 timspalding: Bless you. It's a great feature, and will be exceedingly useful for me, but I'm glad it can be turned off for the LLs. Next question, of course, is, can you magically disable it for all accounts marked as LLs? My recollection of all those passwords is, um, not at all good, I'm afraid ...

168timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 3:52pm Top

I dunno. That's kind of sweeping don't you think? Aren't some managed by others?

Give me a list of accounts (or better, usernums!) and I'll do it in the DB.

169MarthaJeanne
Jul 4, 2015, 3:59pm Top

170JBD1
Jul 4, 2015, 4:01pm Top

>168 timspalding: - I think for the LLs given how weird it looks, it's safer to turn it off globally and let people turn it back on if they want to curate the media data than to leave it on, since there are quite a few LLs that are finished and just not touched anymore (by me or others), and if left alone would just show strange ebooks listed for no clear reason ... (also see comment to your wall re usernums). Thank you!

171timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 4:01pm Top

>169 MarthaJeanne:

Corrected: Thanks.

172timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 4:03pm Top

Okay, would you accept turning them all onto "Visible only to you"?

173Lyndatrue
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 4:04pm Top

>166 timspalding: That's correct. It wasn't decrementing, hence my sadness and sorrow.

I'm in the southeastern side of WA, in the midst of a terrible drought, and chose to spend my water rations on garden beds, and let the lawn suffer (although it's an attestation to Bermuda grass and drought tolerance, but not so much for the Kentucky Blue).

Actually, there seems to have been a bit of a lag. It's now decrementing as expected. Hooray!

174BuiltByBooks
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 4:05pm Top

>168 timspalding: If it's okay, I'd like to use this feature for my LLs. I've already edited William Thackery's and am in the process of Iris Murdoch's.

I think it's a wonderful addition which allows some distinction between Murdoch's books and her music scores, and will be extremely useful when I get to the Woolfs', sorting between their books, political pamphlets, and extensive journal collection.

175timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 4:12pm Top

>173 Lyndatrue:

Ah. Okay. That might happen.

Yes, I've heard it's hot over there. That sounds dreadful.

>174 BuiltByBooks:

I'm setting every LL to "Visible to you." If you're satisfied, you can set it to fully enabled.

176WilliamThackeray
Jul 4, 2015, 4:14pm Top

>175 timspalding:

Works for me. Cheers.

177JBD1
Jul 4, 2015, 4:26pm Top

>172 timspalding: - Yes, absolutely fine!

178timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 4:32pm Top

(Done.)

179timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 4:35pm Top

I have this one ready…

180timspalding
Jul 4, 2015, 4:51pm Top

What IS missing, though?

I've thought of allowing the feature described above. But it just seems fiddly to me.

Power edit and approving any new global changes to the media taxonomy, I think.

181Edward
Jul 4, 2015, 4:56pm Top

I see the duplicate media names I mentioned in #88 have been fixed. Thanks!

182szarka
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 7:48pm Top

OK, I've had a chance to dig in a bit, and here are some initial observations:

1. Great! I can do faceted search, which is awesome. I've been using collections (mostly "ebooks") or tags (mostly "journal") to track media, but this is (or will be) better! (Someday I might even go insane and decide to catalog my music collection at LT, though it's even larger than my book collection, so I'd have to be on serious drugs or something. Videos and sheet music, OTOH, just moved onto my Someday When list.)

2. Sort of related to the below, I wonder whether you are aware that some of us are cataloging non-existent books? In my case, for example, there's Necronomicon and Unaussprechlichen Kulten (both tagged with "bogon"). Note that Venus on the Half-Shell is a real book, though. I know. Right? ;) Anyway, both of these bogons got slotted into "Uknown", which seems appropriate. But I can see this being a problem, and I can see arguing that they are best set to their "actual" fictional media types (if known). Another reasonable response, of course, is that people shouldn't be cataloging nonexistent books. Fair enough. But is a bit of fun and actually a sneaky way to find others with common interests, so it's not totally insane... Could this be solved by creating a special media type for bogons? "Nonexistent Work" or somesuch?

3. One thing I definitely don't like is that the count on the profile page includes items that are not in "Your Library" (but in "Read But Unowned" or, I assume, "Wishlist"). I would like (and why will be clearer below) to have a quick count of the actual physical items I'm lugging around, but "Paper Book" overcounts for this purpose. Also, as someone already observed, it's not clear what type of media something on a wishlist ought to be, and even more so for "Read But Unowned", IMHO. I can see some value to having the media types available for non-owned works, but my strong preference would be not to count them in totals.

4. Now here's my big dilemma, and I'll bet that I'm not the only person with this one... (Though, trigger warning: destruction of perfectly-good books about to be discussed.) I'm well into a major project of destructively scanning a large portion of my library. (191 books done, 114 out for scanning, more out next week!) So far, what I've been doing is leaving them cataloged exactly as they were before scanning but added to a "Scanned" collection. (N.B.: My "Ebook" collection OTOH is purchased ebooks, e.g. Kindle.) Setting these books' media type to "Ebook" definitely doesn't work for me: these are not produced ebooks, but scans of paper books. OTOH, setting their media type to the type of the original physical book would lead to the problem that my physical library will seem to be much bigger than it is when going by the count in my profile. This might seem like a good job for a special media type, and I do think this would be an improvement, but this would still mean losing the information on the original book. I'd rather preserve the record of the original physical book exactly as is, but be able to set a flag indicating that it should no longer be counted as physically in my collection. Is this making sense? (I imagine that those who are cataloging music and such could also find this useful. I do have a few audiobooks on cassette I might do this with...) EDIT: Maybe a media type called "scan" (or "rip", for vinyl records, etc.) that allows an "original media format" field, similar to the way language translations are handled?

5. Minor point, but subcategories of "Book > Ebook" for PDF, Kindle, EPub, etc. might actually be useful. An immediate issue I'd see with this, though, is that I own most of my ebooks in multiple formats. I suspect that you also purchase from O'Reilly and know what I mean, Tim. ;)

183szarka
Jul 4, 2015, 5:55pm Top

Hmm.. it would be really useful to display, e.g., all items with media type "Ebook" but NOT in my collection "Ebooks". I thought I remembered that there was a way to do boolean searches like this, but I can't find it... ??

184leahbird
Jul 4, 2015, 6:00pm Top

I have to say that I LOVE THIS FEATURE, OH MY GOD I LOVE IT!!!!

I DON'T love the mess I made of my catalog with bad data before this came along and exposed it all. OUCH! That's proving less than awesome to fix, but I'm glad to have it all so clearly pointed out and made impossible to replicate in the future with this feature.

185szarka
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 6:06pm Top

I found one "damned thing" that doesn't quite fit: https://www.librarything.com/work/14469185/book/103761656 . This is an ebook that is a compilation of magazine issues. Come to think of it, I'd have the same problem with the recent issues of Linux Journal, if I had gotten around to cataloging them. I'm not sure whether this means that "ebook" should have children, though. Maybe it points back to the physical vs. electronic divide being more profound, as with my problem of the destructive scans I've done...

186prosfilaes
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 6:38pm Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

187lilithcat
Jul 4, 2015, 6:30pm Top

Tim,

I added "spiral bound", and the linked summary (http://www.librarything.com/membermedia/lilithcat) shows I have 3 with that binding. But if I click on "spiral bound", or the numbers in either column, it says "No books found".

Here's one: http://www.librarything.com/catalog/lilithcat&deepsearch=david+stairs Note that if I click on the media field there, I also get "no books found".

188PhaedraB
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 6:58pm Top

>128 timspalding: I've already changed it, but if I can find it, I will.

189PhaedraB
Jul 4, 2015, 7:00pm Top

>128 timspalding: This is the one that came up as Ebook. I've already changed it to Other.

http://www.librarything.com/work/409726/book/118303819

190PhaedraB
Jul 4, 2015, 7:44pm Top

I just tried displaying only one subset of my library (Books, not otherwise classified) using the link on the Media page. It tells me I have 66 books in the category, and when I get to catalog display it gives me 40 items (as I have it set) saying there is one more page of "Book (exact)". But when I go to page 2, I get bumped to 41-80 of 3235 books, or in other words, my whole library of things marked Book, not Book (exact).

Yes, I can think of a few workarounds, but really, it shouldn't do that.

191szarka
Jul 4, 2015, 7:47pm Top

I see the need for it, but the "Multimedia" media type isn't sitting well with me. Only two items in my collection got slotted into it, and both are computer-related books that probably came with a CD-ROM shoved in the back. By that criterion, there are a *lot* of books that should have been similarly categorized--tons of computer-related stuff and textbooks. But, really, I don't think of any of these as "multimedia" packages--just as books that happen to have a CD tacked on. Similarly, if I had, say, The Complete Stax/Volt Singles cataloged, I would really call that a "CD", even though the box set also includes a fairly substantial book(let).

I can't really articulate a hard and fast rule here, and I suspect that there are going to be quite a few cases like this that folks will want to categorize different ways. Seems like a job for something like "primary media type" and "secondary media type", as is currently done for languages.

192macsbrains
Jul 4, 2015, 8:36pm Top

On another note, I don't know if this is browser specific, but when I change languages I can start typing and the drop-down menu goes to the right selection, but for the new media drop-down it doesn't. Can it be made to do so? It just so happens that no matter which media type I am choosing I always need to scroll, and since I'm on a wonky windows 8.1 buggy touchpad monstrosity of a computer, having to stop and move the cursor is infinitely slower than just typing.

193KarenElissa
Jul 4, 2015, 8:42pm Top

I just added a number of books and while the correct format was listed in the add book search, they are all unknown in my library.

Also is there a way to report wrong formats in the add book search. I just added 9780739386200 and it says ebook even though the publication data says Listening Library, so it is an digital audio book.

194ccatalfo
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 8:47pm Top

>193 KarenElissa: That sounds like a bug if it's showing the correct format in add books but not after you add it. We'll take a look at that on Monday as well. Which add books source did you see that happening with?

195KarenElissa
Jul 4, 2015, 8:50pm Top

>194 ccatalfo: A bunch from Amazon, two from Milwaukee Public Library, and one from Seattle Public Library. Should I open a bug report?

196aulsmith
Edited: Jul 4, 2015, 8:56pm Top

>194 ccatalfo: >195 KarenElissa: And I got the same thing using OverCat.

ETA: I think it might be a display problem. Example:

I select the book and you folks add the format, but when you display it on the Edit screen you display unknown, which then wipes out whatever format came in when I save the record (without changing Unknown back to the correct format)

197jjmcgaffey
Jul 4, 2015, 10:33pm Top

>190 PhaedraB: That happens a lot with new features - they work great on the first page, but mess up somehow (generally, go to a larger subset of whatever it was searching - up to your entire library) when you go to the next page. Fortunately, I should think at this point finding the errant code that's doing it would be relatively quick (since it's been fixed for other features so often...).

198Crypto-Willobie
Jul 4, 2015, 11:48pm Top

>194 ccatalfo: >195 KarenElissa: >196 aulsmith:
"it's showing the correct format in add books but not after you add it."

I've noticed this too. Can't recall all now but at least with Oxford University.

I'm not going to do much of anything with my formats until Power Edit is enabled.

199timspalding
Jul 5, 2015, 12:25am Top

>182 szarka: Could this be solved by creating a special media type for bogons? "Nonexistent Work" or somesuch?

We can add that to the list of suggested additions, although I think it's probably one you should add for yourself alone. I would note that non-existant items could be of many different media—a non-existant book, a non-existant record, a non-existant pop-up zine, etc.

>182 szarka: One thing I definitely don't like is that the count on the profile page includes items that are not in "Your Library"…

I hear you, but what's the solution there? I could have a complicated thing like with barcodes, that excluded certain collections from your totals in your profile. But then they'd disagree with what was in all-collections and would need to live in some sort of pseudo-collection for "things that I'm allowing to count in my profile." Or you could have a collection-by-collection disable-ability for media. But what if your wishlist included some things you cared about the media for and some your didn't? Not everything is available in multiple media after all.

Anyway, it seems unworkable to me--every solution adding complexity and not solving everyone's problem. I think I come down as follows: if you object to the way it calculates on your profile, take it off your profile.

>182 szarka: Now here's my big dilemma

Well, it's an edge case, is all I can say. We could, I think, help you solve it if media was multiple. But, again, complexity, for the user and the programmer, is not without cost.

>182 szarka: Minor point, but subcategories of "Book > Ebook" for PDF, Kindle, EPub, etc. might actually be useful.

I think that's perhaps the most likely addition to the taxonomy.

I have to say that I LOVE THIS FEATURE, OH MY GOD I LOVE IT!!!!

Thanks!

>187 lilithcat: I added "spiral bound", and the linked summary (http://www.librarything.com/membermedia/lilithcat) shows I have 3 with that binding. But if I click on "spiral bound", or the numbers in either column, it says "No books found".

Okay, I'll look into that next. I think I know why.

>189 PhaedraB: This is the one that came up as Ebook. I've already changed it to Other.

http://www.librarything.com/work/409726/book/118303819


Okay, next to look at.

>190 PhaedraB:

Okay, third in line to be looked at.

>191 szarka: Only two items in my collection got slotted into it, and both are computer-related books that probably came with a CD-ROM shoved in the back. By that criterion, there are a *lot* of books that should have been similarly categorized--tons of computer-related stuff and textbooks.

We aren't making arbitrary decisions, but working with the data we have. Clearly that's not going as far as everyone would like.

>192 macsbrains: On another note, I don't know if this is browser specific, but when I change languages I can start typing and the drop-down menu goes to the right selection, but for the new media drop-down it doesn't.

It's probably the browser not liking the way some of the items are intended. It works on a number of browsers, but perhaps on yours. I'm not sure I can think of a way around that.

Also is there a way to report wrong formats in the add book search. I just added 9780739386200 and it says ebook even though the publication data says Listening Library, so it is an digital audio book.

Okay, we'll look into it. If you added it from Overcat, it says that it's an ebook when you search for it, though. Obviously it also says "Listening library," but we're not parsing the names of publishers, which is what that is. The question for ccatalfo is whether there's other data in there that we can or should be parsing to see that it's a digital audiobook.

>194 ccatalfo: That sounds like a bug if it's showing the correct format in add books but not after you add it. We'll take a look at that on Monday as well. Which add books source did you see that happening with?

Well, if it's Overcat, it's showing up as Ebook when you search.



>195 KarenElissa: A bunch from Amazon, two from Milwaukee Public Library, and one from Seattle Public Library. Should I open a bug report?

No, do it here. Give exact accounts, though. What did you search for from what source? Please note the second line, which has the format in it.

>196 aulsmith:

Specifics needed.

I'm not going to do much of anything with my formats until Power Edit is enabled.

That's understandable. It's not, however, going to be enabled until the underyling data decisions are as good as we can make them. We'd rather people have to correct 20 books than 40.

200macsbrains
Edited: Jul 5, 2015, 12:43am Top

I know there were some issues earlier with new formats not sticking, but I just encountered a strange issue (not sure if it perfectly replicates some of the other problems).

First, I made a 'spiral-bound' format under 'paper book' and set several books to it with no problem. These books were previously greened as either paperback or hardcover.

Second, I made a '雑誌' format under 'paper book' and set a couple dozen books to it that previously had been greened to unknown. They did not stick. They all changed to Comic book, which, while not exactly wrong in this case, is neither what they were before, nor what I changed them to. I also had this appear on my profile:

Which shows 雑誌 twice (was previously 3 times, but 1 has disappeared) and neither of them work when I click them.

Did I break it by using kanji characters?

----
Edited to add: Well, I kept changing them and they seem to be sticking now -- I don't know what was going on -- but the profile link still duplicates and doesn't work.

201timspalding
Jul 5, 2015, 12:48am Top

>187 lilithcat: But if I click on "spiral bound", or the numbers in either column, it says "No books found".

Fixed. Thanks.

202timspalding
Edited: Jul 5, 2015, 1:07am Top

>128 timspalding: timspalding: This is the one that came up as Ebook. I've already changed it to Other.

http://www.librarything.com/work/409726/book/118303819


Note for ccatalfo:

1. The book is id 118303819
2. It has the binding of "cards" and the product group of 3 (eBooks)
3. The LT system lists the product group for that ISBN/ASIN within out xml data as books

So, either something went wrong in the assignment of the product group, or the product group changed between first calculation and recently.

203timspalding
Jul 5, 2015, 1:27am Top

>190 PhaedraB: But when I go to page 2, I get bumped to 41-80 of 3235 books, or in other words, my whole library of things marked Book, not Book (exact).

Fixed. Thanks. Good catch.

204timspalding
Edited: Jul 5, 2015, 2:10am Top

>200 macsbrains:

The labeling issue is now fixed. Thanks for the detailed report.

The "sticking" issue may have been database delay. I'm not sure.

205timspalding
Jul 5, 2015, 2:15am Top

>200 macsbrains:

Ah, also the linking issue is fixed.

My, how many little niggly bugs I left :)

206szarka
Jul 5, 2015, 2:27am Top

Is there a consensus on how to catalog spiral-bound and comb-bound books?

How about leather-bound books (e.g. bibles)?

207macsbrains
Jul 5, 2015, 3:04am Top

#205 by timspalding>

Alas, the niggly bugs are still rearing their heads.

The good news is my two previous issues are resolved and working fine. The bad news is that all my custom formats look like this, with extra greater than signs:

208timspalding
Jul 5, 2015, 3:05am Top

Ugh. Tomorrow.

209timspalding
Jul 5, 2015, 3:17am Top

Fixed.

210szarka
Jul 5, 2015, 3:20am Top

OK, I went through a good chunk of my library and submitted some corrections (though not for ones where the item was put in an appropriate broader category). I didn't go through all 1700+ paperbacks, but the sample I looked at were almost all correct. There were quite a few paperbacks miscategorized as hardcover, but they tended to be academic press books; large books (what I would have called "trade" paperbacks before reading lorax's post); poetry; academic or literary journals/magazines; or cheap paperback versions of textbooks. I also noticed that hardcover book club editions typically got thrown into "Book" or "Paper Book", as did older paperbacks (1970s or so). I don't have a lot of non-book items cataloged, but there weren't many of those that were wildly off. Overall, a pretty good first pass at automated sorting.

211r.orrison
Edited: Jul 5, 2015, 5:18am Top

Is there any way that the media type selection dropdown could automatically include the most commonly used media types from the user's library? (To save having to regularly change to the full list for things you use a lot.)

212JerryMmm
Edited: Jul 5, 2015, 8:47am Top

Can I get a media: search shortcut 1 2 or 3 (with NOT versions) to search for items that have 1 or 2 or 3 levels of information present?

I also added Book>Ebook>Short Story to my personal list.
Also, I added Book>Paper Book>Softcover to my list for those books that are not paperbacks in the way you would think a paperback is:


But since they have a soft cover, they're not hardcovers obviously. They're either atlas sized or similar, or look like hardcovers but with soft covers.

Since I only have 200 items I changed all that were incomplete or wrong. I think you are having problems with format info from Koninklijke Bibliotheek, and I had to fix many of my Terry Pratchett hardcovers, most of whom came from British Library.

213KarenElissa
Jul 5, 2015, 8:51am Top

>199 timspalding: >195 KarenElissa: KarenElissa: A bunch from Amazon, two from Milwaukee Public Library, and one from Seattle Public Library. Should I open a bug report?

No, do it here. Give exact accounts, though. What did you search for from what source? Please note the second line, which has the format in it.


A couple from Amazon, 0062008161 (hardcover), 0451233360 (paperback), 080909469X (hardcover), and 0385350155 (hardcover).

From Milwaukee Public Library, 9781470339043 (e-book) and 9781101572122 (e-book).

And from Seattle Public Library, 9780739386200 (listed as e-book, should be digital audio, but either way, still showing up as unknown in my catalog).

214KarenElissa
Jul 5, 2015, 8:54am Top

>211 r.orrison: Is there any way that the media type selection dropdown could automatically include the most commonly used media types from the user's library? (To save having to regularly change to the full list for things you use a lot.)

Yes please! Either a way to customize what options I want on the main list a recently used options or most frequently used options would be great. Getting to the full list is an awful lot of clicking and having the formats I use most on the main list would be great.

215JerryMmm
Jul 5, 2015, 9:10am Top

If you have the Media showing in one of your styles in Your Books, you can double-click on one you want to change, and then type the first letter of the thing you want to change it to, it will cycle through the options starting with that letter.
When the right option is selected, you can hit the Tab-key to focus the Save Media button and hit Enter to make it stick.

I do wish the pop-over box would disappear when hitting Esc, not sure that's even possible, but I'd like it.

216anglemark
Jul 5, 2015, 9:33am Top

>212 JerryMmm: I agree. I'd hate to categorise all my bandes-dessinées (comics albums) as paperbacks. Hardcover/softcover would have made much more sense to me.

217aulsmith
Jul 5, 2015, 10:53am Top

>199 timspalding: re 196

searched "Performing Literature" on Add Book Screen with Overcat as default
selected "Performing voice in literature" by Robert Beloof from Washington State listed as "Paper Book"
clicked on pencil Edit. Media information is now Unknown

I don't think this is a subtle error. I think it's happening on all add books when you click on pencil edit.

Re: sources for ccatalfo look at.

I assume you're using the MARC 008/007 for the media information. There is sometimes additional format information in 006 -- however, I don't know how you'll make sense of it, since it's really another 008 to get at works where you need to keep track of multiple formats (like an art book with a separate portfolio of prints might get an 006 for the prints)

Also, libraries are not consistent in how they use these. A library that has a multi-media feature in the checkout system (the ones that force the clerk to check that the set is complete before completing the check out) that depends on certain 007 subfields being set is more likely to use them than a library that doesn't.

218leahbird
Jul 5, 2015, 1:35pm Top

I don't think anyone has brought up articles in online publications or publications that have been digitized. I have some research articles cataloged that were accessed via JSTOR and they are currently marked "Unknown." I don't mind to just make my own category, but I'd guess that this would be a useful addition for many.

219Crypto-Willobie
Jul 5, 2015, 1:41pm Top

>218 leahbird:
I have quite a number of items like that (many as yet uncatalogued). I print them out rather than leaving them in "e" form, so that I may file them with other papers. I call them "printouts"

220JerryMmm
Jul 5, 2015, 3:29pm Top

btw timspalding, is the search index not caught up to the new media field, or is it lagging a lot?

http://www.librarything.com/catalog.php?searchall=1&deepsearch=media%3A-book...

many books show, while I'm searching for media:-book

221szarka
Edited: Jul 5, 2015, 3:44pm Top

>218leahbird

I have thousands of these cataloged in Zotero, but I can't imagine doing it in LT! It's a bit similar to my dilemma with books I've destructively scanned and now have in PDF form, but the difference here is that there isn't a one-to-one correspondence to a physical object when we're talking about an individual journal article or book chapter. Would you consider them a subcategory of ebook?

222szarka
Jul 5, 2015, 3:50pm Top

I just added this book: https://www.librarything.com/work/12797160/book/119715765

I used the Add books page with ISBN and Amazon to add it, and the search very slickly recognized that there was both a Hardcover and an Ebook version, so I clicked on the Hardcover. But after I added it, the edit page showed the media type as Unknown.

223_Zoe_
Jul 5, 2015, 4:11pm Top

One thing I definitely don't like is that the count on the profile page includes items that are not in "Your Library"…

I hear you, but what's the solution there? I could have a complicated thing like with barcodes, that excluded certain collections from your totals in your profile. But then they'd disagree with what was in all-collections and would need to live in some sort of pseudo-collection for "things that I'm allowing to count in my profile."


Collections have checkmark settings for a reason; there's already "include in recommendations" and "include in connections". For ages people have also wanted "include in statistics"; here's an RSI about it from more than four years ago.

224eromsted
Jul 5, 2015, 5:28pm Top

It looks like LCCs have been removed from the addbooks search preview to make space for media type. This is a real shame from my point of view as I try to ensure that all of my book records have LCCs.

When the Library of Congress doesn't have the book or doesn't list an LCC (or uses one of the old PZ LCCs for literature, for instance) I choose an alternate source based on whether I'll get a good LCC.

Now I won't be able to do that. I'll have to add the record blind and then hunt around in WorldCat for an LCC if I didn't get one. That's more work.

225MrsLee
Jul 5, 2015, 6:08pm Top

I've been away for a couple of days, and to be honest, I only skimmed the 175 messages here since I left.

A lot of my audio books and ebooks I've added manually, somewhere up above it was mentioned that media isn't "sticking" for manually added books. Does that mean that if I go in and edit them, it won't stick? Or does that mean that if I add new books manually the media format won't stick? I have far too many books to be doing this twice, so will you please let us know in big red letters when it is OK to fix our catalogs?

If someone would just pay me, I would love to quit my job and play here all day with this new feature, but sadly no one has come forth yet with that offer.

226AnnaClaire
Jul 5, 2015, 6:10pm Top

>218 leahbird:
I have a few currently cataloged as e-books (as they are PDF's), though I certainly don't think that's quite the best place for them.

227szarka
Jul 5, 2015, 6:38pm Top

>223_Zoe_

Yes, a checkbox thingie for the collection is exactly what I was thinking of.

I think the second-best option may be to define a subtype of "ebook" called "scans" and just use that. LT doesn't quite work for me as the place to keep detailed bibliographic info anyway; I use Zotero for that now, and will probably have to either extend Zotero or gin up my own solution for creating a private archive of my research library. (For the non-research stuff, it doesn't matter that much anyway.)

There seems to a bit of a tension in LT between using it as a full-blown catalog of a library and using it as a social site. "Wishlist" and "Read but unowned" are great features for social networking, but for a catalog of library holdings those collections shouldn't get counted. "Real" libraries that uses LT probably don't use "Wishlist" and RBU, so that doesn't really affect them. But as I think about doing the Tinycat thing with the items I'm not going to destructively scan, I feel like I'll have a foot in both worlds and don't like the idea of having item counts that don't reflect my actual holdings.

(None of which is a major complaint. I've gotten more than my money's worth out of LT already, and, even though I expected it to succeed when I signed up back in 2005, it has grown into much more than I expected!)

228ccatalfo
Edited: Jul 5, 2015, 8:42pm Top

>217 aulsmith:

We look at a bunch of MARC fields to try to get a handle on the media (Leader, 008, 006, 007 if present, even the 300 as a last resort). Part of what I need to do, I think, is delineate better just where and how we're deciding what it is so we can tweak it in certain cases if necessary.

229timspalding
Jul 6, 2015, 2:06am Top

Collections have checkmark settings for a reason; there's already "include in recommendations" and "include in connections". For ages people have also wanted "include in statistics"; here's an RSI about it from more than four years ago.

Right. I could exclude it from statistics, but then the numbers won't match what's on the media sub-page, or in the catalog, and we'll get confusion and complaints there. Or I could remove it entirely and everywhere based on collection. But I don't buy that people who want to exclude the media of their wishlist from their profile want the media removed entirely from all the books in those collections. No, people are going to say "Why do these books not have collections!" (The answer will be that they also belong to another collection that excludes media.) And on and on.

There are lots of partial solutions, but I don't think any is simple, clear and solves most of the problem.

230abbottthomas
Jul 6, 2015, 4:39am Top

I know that an awful lot is going on at the moment but it would be very helpful if we could have the option to lock on to the complete list of media when editing: the extra couple of clicks just about double the time taken.

This has, I know been raised a few times already.

231timspalding
Jul 6, 2015, 9:52am Top

Okay, I'm going to make it "stick" from the last time you choose.

232MarthaJeanne
Jul 6, 2015, 10:22am Top

Please, please, please let us see what source an OverCat search response is from.

233Lyndatrue
Jul 6, 2015, 10:34am Top

timspalding, let me join with the request in >232 MarthaJeanne: It's making it VERY frustrating to try to add new books. I called you some unfriendly names yesterday (but I'm too far away for you to have heard them).

234timspalding
Jul 6, 2015, 10:45am Top

Did it used to say that for every book?

235MarthaJeanne
Edited: Jul 6, 2015, 10:59am Top

Yes. And there are noticable differences in how the various sources format things.

236sturlington
Jul 6, 2015, 10:58am Top

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but what if you want to distinguish between trade paperback and mass market paperback formats? We cannot currently add another level another paperback, correct?

237lilithcat
Edited: Jul 6, 2015, 11:13am Top

>234 timspalding:

Yes. I see that the results now show the library, but we used to be able to click on that and get the full record. That is no longer possible.

That's frustrating, because it allowed us to verify that a particular record was for our edition of the book. That might not matter too much if you are searching via ISBN, but if you aren't, you can't tell if what you get in the results is actually your book.

238JBD1
Edited: Jul 6, 2015, 11:12am Top

>237 lilithcat: and >224 eromsted: I third (fourth?) this request to have the data back in the "more information" for Overcat results. The extra information that used to be shown for Overcat searches was key to knowing just what you were getting with a given result.

239timspalding
Jul 6, 2015, 11:29am Top

>238 JBD1:

Well, most of the more information is there, but no longer hidden under a click. You want LCC?

240JBD1
Jul 6, 2015, 11:34am Top

>239 timspalding: - LCC is certainly useful - also if you click to see the alternate records you can't see the library they're from, or any of the other data that you can see for the original result.

241timspalding
Jul 6, 2015, 12:17pm Top

Okay, what's the complete list of things that should be there, that aren't?

242Lyndatrue
Jul 6, 2015, 12:19pm Top

>239 timspalding: Now there's a stupid and pointless image for each source, instead of all the useful information that allowed me to know whether or not the source at a particular library was what I wanted. Many of the books I add were published long before ISBNs were even thought of. Please make it go back to the way it was before. :-(

243timspalding
Jul 6, 2015, 12:29pm Top

>242 Lyndatrue:

It will will not go back to how it was before. The way it is now is better. But we can add back data you want. Which data do you want?

244anglemark
Jul 6, 2015, 12:31pm Top

The source, most of all.

245jcbrunner
Jul 6, 2015, 12:42pm Top

Example:
1. Search Overcat for "Wilhelm Tell Schiller".
2. Select "choose from 7 alternate records from 2 libraries" on the 2004 Reclam edition (famous German yellow pocket book series)

Now you see the 8 editions but not the source and also only partially the data quality. The old mode gave you a good hint about the data quality of the record. Now, it is very confusing and unhelpful.

Solution:
1. List the records sequentially (not side by side)
2. Indicate the data source library
3. List the field names and records - all authors, publication info, media type, page numbers - to allow a comparison which entry to pick. Do not hide empty fields.

246Lyndatrue
Jul 6, 2015, 12:43pm Top

>243 timspalding: I don't *know* what data I want. It used to have all those little fussy things, including the ability to know which place or places it was, and it always had a "more" that let it expand so that I could see the data in it. When comparing multiple editions, it was so helpful to see that one had bothered to list all the actual page numbers, and not excluded things like the introduction (numbered in roman), or various appendices.

I'm very sad that this is broken (for me, at least). I'm not sure why this was done. I can't see how it's better.

247lorax
Jul 6, 2015, 12:44pm Top

>243 timspalding:

I think it's enough to say "It will not go back" without insulting someone who clearly does not think the way it is now is better.

I tried it (I haven't added any books) and I will agree that the way it is now is not better. To clarify, what we're talking about is what happens when you click on the "X alternate records from Y libraries" link from an Overcat result.

Previously, it would show you the normally-formatted results (a vertical list), with the source for each one clearly marked, and the ability to click to see fuller information.

Now it shows you a horizontally-formatted list, with a cover image for each entry, no source data, and no way to get the additional data.

I notice that even when searching, say, the Library of Congress there is no way to get the additional data that was previously exposed.

Frankly the only way this is "better" is by the Goodreads mentality where you don't want us to trouble ourselves with actual data. If it stays this way, I'm going to 100% manual entry.

248lorax
Jul 6, 2015, 12:53pm Top

Addendum to my previous:

Should we spin off discussion of the Add Books changes to another thread, and reserve this one for talking about the Media feature?

249elenchus
Edited: Jul 6, 2015, 12:56pm Top

>243 timspalding:

For me, the key was additional detail allowing me to confirm / identify the correct edition (manifestation) of the book.

Source
Publisher including Location (e.g. London)
Publication Year
Editor(s) / Other Author(s)
ISBN
Format -- I think this used to be provided, but perhaps only as part of Description?

And as mentioned above, provide the above even when blank, rather than hiding. It allows a ready comparison of each alternate, to see which is more complete and/or more relevant to my specific copy.

250aulsmith
Jul 6, 2015, 1:03pm Top

>241 timspalding: I almost never looked at the alternate records, but I did use the More link on the first page to make sure the record listed things like translators. So I don't think it's a matter of what needs to be on the results page, so much that some people care more about the information density of the record and need to see the record.

BTW, when I do go the alternate records now all I get is this in the url line (Windows 8/latest Firefox):

javascript:addbooks.loadView('/ajax_overcatdiff.php?eid=2422797&cacheKey=searchresponse-ult_1225918658&collectionsA=1');

It might be just the way I've configured javascript in Firefox. Don't always know what I'm doing when I get to those options.

No need to solve this for me, if it's working for others.

251lorax
Jul 6, 2015, 1:47pm Top

New thread for complaining about the removal of Add Books functions at http://www.librarything.com/topic/192984 . And, I suppose, for Tim to make his case for why he considers providing us with less information in a worse presentation to be "better".

252MarthaJeanne
Jul 6, 2015, 2:07pm Top

When we can't see the source library it is not better. It is worse.

253JerryMmm
Jul 6, 2015, 2:08pm Top

>249 elenchus: mentions what I'd like to see as well.

254fyrefly98
Edited: Jul 6, 2015, 2:33pm Top

>107 TimSharrock: so it would be even more worthwhile to be able to "switch the source record" on an existing book in LT

This is probably best for a different thread, but I would like this so much. So much of what I entered in the early days was from Amazon (before I knew better), and I'd love to be able to clean this up without deleting and re-adding everything (and losing tags, reviews, date added, etc. in the process.)

255timspalding
Edited: Jul 6, 2015, 3:07pm Top

To clarify, what we're talking about is what happens when you click on the "X alternate records from Y libraries" link from an Overcat result.

Okay, that wasn't clear to me before.

Now it shows you a horizontally-formatted list, with a cover image for each entry, no source data, and no way to get the additional data.

Got it. This is a bug. ccatalfo is fixing.

For me, the key was additional detail allowing me to confirm / identify the correct edition (manifestation) of the book.

Right. These two issues got very mixed up here.

Okay, we're looking at how to add them. The new principle has been to show the data, rather than hiding stuff under a click. But we did get rid of some stuff. My sense is that the data there is about identification, not just listing data that goes into the record when you click it. Nobody uses LCC to identify, that is to know if the book is the right book, and whether to click on it. If it's not identification, but whether there's data in a field, well, there are a LOT of fields we could add back in.

256PhaedraB
Jul 6, 2015, 6:25pm Top

Just tried to change media in both of my two accounts, one in FF and one in Chrome.

This is what I get:

257krazy4katz
Jul 6, 2015, 8:58pm Top

I have decided to solve the wishlist problem by setting all the works in that collection to "Book" with no subcategory. Since I don't catalog anything else, this will do for now.

k4k

258timspalding
Jul 6, 2015, 9:17pm Top

>256 PhaedraB:

Fixed. Thanks.

259SylviaC
Edited: Jul 6, 2015, 10:46pm Top

>257 krazy4katz: That was my solution, too. I think I'll do the same for "Read but not owned"

260krazy4katz
Jul 6, 2015, 10:45pm Top

>259 SylviaC: Yeah, some of my "Read but unowned" I remember and some I don't. I guess I will use "book" for the ones I don't remember. Those are also the works where the data is likely to be less accurate anyway.

261leselotte
Jul 7, 2015, 3:19am Top

Hi,

chiming in to say yay, great feature; I love it! I went and fixed all of my book during one sleepless night.
(Now I'm on a roll to fix my publication details because they don't always match anymore, though - talk about a time sink!)

I added 2 ebooks from the German Amazon site yesterday, which showed up as Format Unknown when I checked the details. I know this was discussed before in this thread, but I can't find it anymore! Just letting you know it still happens.

As others here voiced, I think there should be a distinction between trade and mass market paperbacks. For me, that's a big difference, because a lot of my books that say "paperback" are actually original editions that have never been hardcover editions.

(Sinnce horses don't like to be alone, could the next pony be that sort of drop-down for number of pages & publisher, instead of that publication field which I'm always forgetting which way I meant to fill it in when fixing it?)

Thanks again for this great feature :)

262miketopper
Jul 7, 2015, 10:13am Top

>98 eromsted: there is now a media filter on the advanced search page.

263timspalding
Jul 7, 2015, 10:19am Top

Update: Members have manually changed the format on 160,000 books. Yipes.

264lilithcat
Jul 7, 2015, 10:25am Top

> 263

I have to say I would have done more if I hadn't gotten frustrated with the full list not sticking. I can't tell you how happy I am that it now does.

265lquilter
Jul 7, 2015, 10:27am Top

> 263, 264 -- Yes, as soon as I have lightning / bulk edit, I've got a lot more work to do!

266lorax
Jul 7, 2015, 10:36am Top

>263 timspalding:

It would be a lot more if I could power edit everything I have tagged "hb" to Hardback, and if my brain didn't keep seeing "Paper Book" as "Paperback" and thinking the data was already accurate.

267miketopper
Jul 7, 2015, 10:53am Top

>220 JerryMmm: there was an issue where the index wasn't being triggered to update when you edited the media on the catalog page. i've fixed the bug and we plan on doing a full reindex of all users later on today.

in the meantime, I've reindexed your books and it seems to be updated now.

if anyone else is seeing inconsistencies, you can trigger a manual reindexing of your catalog by hitting the url:

http://www.librarything.com/elasticsearch_reindex_books.php

268JerryMmm
Jul 7, 2015, 11:05am Top

miketopper do you have a list of which mediatype is which number?

I find it confusing when searching for media: Book I get only those with just Book set, but when I search for -Book I get all Book>Paper Book>etc .

Is there an easy way to find all items that are not books ?

269lorax
Jul 7, 2015, 11:17am Top

Wait, you mean there is no way to just search for books? We can either get things that are just Book but not Book > Paperbook > Hardcover, or just hardcover but not paperback or Book > Paper Book?

270lilithcat
Jul 7, 2015, 11:20am Top

Why don't we just have "Codex", "Scroll", "Tablet > Wax", "Tablet > Stone", and "Tablet > Clay"?

(Just trying to inject a bit of humor here.)

271Foretopman
Jul 7, 2015, 11:23am Top

>270 lilithcat: No, I think I'd need "Scroll > Papyrus" and "Scroll > Parchment".

(Just trying to play along.)

272miketopper
Jul 7, 2015, 11:26am Top

the media: search is searching text and currently only the text in there is the deepest level text. so for "Book > Paperbook > Hardcover" what is currently being indexed is "Hardcover"

you can use the advanced search if you want to limit by higher level media categories.

>268 JerryMmm: currently there isn't an easy way to do that. the mediatype number for the book level is 1, so although this isn't really user friendly if you really want to search for all entries that are not books you would currently have to do the search mediacode:-1*

273Taphophile13
Jul 7, 2015, 11:26am Top

Please add papyrus > palimpsest and parchment > scroll as well.

274abbottthomas
Jul 7, 2015, 11:27am Top

>264 lilithcat: I can't get the complete media list to stick - how do you do it?

275lorax
Jul 7, 2015, 11:27am Top

>273 Taphophile13:

Please add papyrus > palimpsest

I think that's getting into a content rather than format distinction, no? ;-)

276_Zoe_
Jul 7, 2015, 1:20pm Top

Not to mention that palimpsests are more common on parchment than papyrus anyway.

277fyrefly98
Jul 7, 2015, 1:31pm Top

What about MP3 CD for audiobook format? I've got a number of these, and it seems like the same logic between separating DVD and BluRay (if you stick one in the other player, it won't work) is equally valid for CD vs. MP3 CD.

278szarka
Jul 7, 2015, 1:55pm Top

>107 TimSharrock: TimSharrock: so it would be even more worthwhile to be able to "switch the source record" on an existing book in LT

That's a cool idea. I've got 111 books tagged "nae" entered in the early days of LT, when men were men and data sources were limited... Would be nice to be able to clean those up easily without losing stuff like reviews, reading dates, etc. More a "Rob is lazy" than a "must have" feature, though.

279timspalding
Jul 7, 2015, 3:32pm Top

Screen shot:



I'm concerned about some of the data not being there—no OCLC numbers on anything, for example. But that can be dealt with.

280jcbrunner
Jul 7, 2015, 3:38pm Top

The convention is to leave the original language field empty if it matches the language field.

In LT, this then results in the original language field to be not set/empty. Would it be possible to fill in the original language field with the language field value if the former is empty?

281lorax
Jul 7, 2015, 3:43pm Top

I just wanted to make sure that the nesting-depth issue raised in >35 lorax: and >38 timspalding:

Me: Back to the trade vs mmpb distinction, I wasn't expecting you to be able to capture it; I was expecting to be able to enter it myself as part of the tree. I can't see a way to nest it under Paperback, only under Paper Book.

Tim: Ah, yes. It only allows additions on the first and second levels. Hmmm. Okay, I should probably allow that. Give me a bit fixing other stuff.

hasn't been forgotten, just deprioritized since it is admittedly much lower priority than some of the other issues raised here.

283szarka
Jul 7, 2015, 7:25pm Top

If I ever do start cataloging my sound recordings in LT, I'll definitely need subcategories for "Record"! (I'd suggest looking at what http://musicbrainz.org/ and https://rateyourmusic.com/ have done and trying to make reasonable import/export possible... It would be especially great if musicbrainz were a data source for "Add books".)

284ccatalfo
Jul 7, 2015, 8:04pm Top

>283 szarka: I, for one, would love that.

285lquilter
Jul 7, 2015, 10:14pm Top

> 107, 254 >> yes, this would be lovely! replace amazon record with another record. I'm pretty sure this has been suggested before, and was being considered ...

286jjmcgaffey
Jul 8, 2015, 1:22am Top

>263 timspalding: hee hee. You are always amazed at what we'll do when you give us a new bit of data to play with - remember when we first got Dead/Alive?

>285 lquilter: Hmmm. It's certainly been asked for, but I don't remember anyone ever saying it was under serious consideration. I'd love it, though. Some kind of "merge record", so we go find a good record of book X, then merge the personal stuff (tags, reading dates, reviews, ratings, etc - oh, and Entry Date!) onto the new record? I'd do that - reenter all my early Amazon stuff.

287leselotte
Jul 8, 2015, 3:15am Top

I added some more books from amazon.de; the correct format was shown in search results, but were shown as "Unknown" in My Library after adding (hardcovers in that case).

I'm always checking and fixing my entries now, but I'm sure there are many members who don't do that and therefore don't have formats for their books! Is this a bug or is it intentional?

And yeah, I know Amazon is not the preferred choice for adding books, but gives me a temporary cover for many obscure (though current) German books ... plus I started out that way when I first joined :)

288ccatalfo
Jul 8, 2015, 8:08am Top

>287 leselotte: Thanks - it's a "what to show" bug on the edit page, we're working on it.

289lquilter
Edited: Jul 8, 2015, 8:25am Top

> 286 : IIRC, it was around the time OverCat was debuted. I can't guarantee the accuracy of my recollections. Maybe it was all just user-side chatter, but I definitely had a sense that it was more than a merely wished-for pony.

290fyrefly98
Jul 8, 2015, 10:46am Top

>289 lquilter: You've got a good memory! When I was searching Talk to be sure I wasn't repeating an often-made request re: source switching, all I found was this: http://www.librarything.com/topic/91497#1985753 which is actually your post from 2010… in the beta-testing thread for OverCat. But Tim seemed positive about it back in the day, so maybe it's not entirely a pony?

291jjmcgaffey
Jul 8, 2015, 2:50pm Top

>287 leselotte: You do know that you don't have to enter from Amazon to get an Amazon cover? If you enter from anywhere, and the book has an ISBN and Amazon has a cover, that cover will show up. If it doesn't have an ISBN, it won't have a cover even if you add it from Amazon.

292lorax
Jul 8, 2015, 3:10pm Top

Useful tip:

While the format isn't searchable (yet, I hope), you can manually hack the URL to limit your catalog to one format or another. I have all my books tagged with format (tpb, hb, mmpb, mostly), and want to find cases where the Format is incorrect (as opposed to incomplete), which may indicate that I have the incorrect ISBN in my catalog. Something like

http://www.librarything.com/catalog/lorax&deepsearch=tag%3A+%22hb%22&for... for hardbacks with a format of "Paperback". (You can get the numerical mappings by hovering over the catalog link. 1.1.1 is paperback, 1.1.2 is hardcover.)

293jjwilson61
Edited: Jul 8, 2015, 3:30pm Top

>292 lorax: While the format isn't searchable (yet, I hope)...

Tim announced support for Media in Search back in >130 timspalding:.

294lorax
Edited: Jul 8, 2015, 3:43pm Top

>293 jjwilson61:

Um, no, he didn't, and if you actually try searching you will find that it does not in fact work, either with the search box (trying format: paperback, format: Paperback, or format: 1.1.1) or with the annoying little dropdown. What he says is that it's indexed, which means it won't be too hard to add it to the parser. I wouldn't have resorted to hacking the URL if search worked.

295jjwilson61
Jul 8, 2015, 3:49pm Top

>294 lorax: My mistake. Media in Advanced Search was actually announced in >262 miketopper:, and >272 miketopper: suggests that you can use Media: as a term in the regular search as well (media, not format).

296lorax
Jul 8, 2015, 3:52pm Top

Ah, thank you! They really need to pick a terminology and stick with it. It said "format" in the URL when I clicked on one from the catalog, so I assumed that was what they were using internally. Too clever for my own good, obviously.

297lquilter
Jul 8, 2015, 8:50pm Top

> 290 re: switching source data from Amazon to library:

The 2010 post is a great find. But I was definitely referencing some prior discussion.

Here's another couple of related threads from 2010: Weening myself off Amazon data and Physical description, pages, sizes and LibraryThing philosophy (Tim:

"1. Should we move to a tiered model of record types--eg., simple records and complex ones. Does record-type determine what edits can be made? If so, can a user change the record type--for example, from a simple Amazonish model to a library-ish model?"

"1. We now have library data for virtually all Amazon-sourced books—and will allow members to jump to it, in full or in part. ")

And another thread about amazon covers that touched on these issues: http://www.librarything.com/topic/78213

298timspalding
Jul 8, 2015, 9:12pm Top

Yeah, I should go through and change that. Ugly to change, though.

299PhaedraB
Jul 8, 2015, 11:05pm Top

BTW, did I see somewhere in all these posts that the drop-down list would remember if we last used the short list or the long list? Because it hasn't been doing that.

Of course, I've done almost all my books already, because, new feature...

300abbottthomas
Jul 9, 2015, 4:51am Top

>299 PhaedraB: Echo!!
I've still got lots to do.

301lilithcat
Jul 9, 2015, 8:58am Top

>299 PhaedraB:

It doesn't remember it from one book to the next. However, you used to have to click on it twice; now it's just once.

302anglemark
Jul 9, 2015, 6:48pm Top

timspalding, the media types are not translateable on the profile page. For some reason, the translated strings are not used there.

303PhaedraB
Jul 9, 2015, 10:08pm Top

>301 lilithcat: It works differently in different browsers. Very efficient in Chrome, tedious in FF.

(I access one account in one browser and the other in a different browser so I can be logged into two accounts at once.)

304timspalding
Jul 9, 2015, 10:19pm Top

FYI: We are running a process to improve your underlying data. It turns out some portion of the data was calculated incorrectly. It should be done sometime tomorrow night.

305timspalding
Jul 10, 2015, 12:19am Top

>302 anglemark:

Fixed. Thanks.

There was also a recent bug with user-defined formats not showing. It has been fixed.

306AngelaB86
Jul 10, 2015, 5:33pm Top

I didn't read all the preceding comments, just wanted to say I love this. Already went through and fixed the formats for my e-books, and can't wait to get my books out of storage this fall. The only issue I have is that I sometimes have both paper and e- versions of books, and the system doesn't allow for double labeling an entry (which I'm guessing isn't going to change). Maybe I should just start keeping those as separate entries.

307Lyndatrue
Jul 10, 2015, 5:47pm Top

>306 AngelaB86: I have multiple copies of books, and often, when I've read something in eBook format, I realize that I'll want to have it around for the long term. Paper is forever (or at least for a lot longer than electronic media). I really recommend entering each copy of a book that you have; easier to track, and easier to label.

308gsc55
Jul 10, 2015, 8:47pm Top

my media summary page now has a whole lot of code appearing. "danger Will Robinson"

309timspalding
Jul 10, 2015, 8:53pm Top

Sorry, it's just debugging code. If you're curious, it shows when the different levels, book, work, ISBN, disagree, or potentially disagree,about the media of your book. We are using it to find problems in the data. I'll remove it when I finish the nap that I am taking!

310PhaedraB
Jul 10, 2015, 9:18pm Top

>309 timspalding: Typing while napping. I'm impressed.

311timspalding
Jul 11, 2015, 4:42am Top

:)

Fixed.

312timspalding
Edited: Jul 11, 2015, 8:07am Top

>72 PhaedraB: and >75 elenchus:

I have changed it so that it will remember the last time you used the format menu. If you chose the complete list, it will be the complete list again.

313h-mb
Jul 23, 2015, 5:27pm Top

This addition is great! Thank you. I used Collections to separate ebook, audio and paper. Now, my collections will be more coherent and I still get all the informations I need. Great idea :-)

314MissionaryLibrary
Jul 24, 2015, 8:48am Top

Is it possible to add games to the media list? I'm sure it would help a lot of homeschoolers who use your site to catalog and plan:) Thanks!

315aulsmith
Jul 24, 2015, 11:30am Top

>315 aulsmith: You could put them under multi-media. (See the thread continuation. Or define your own category.

316FirstLChurchFF
Sep 28, 2015, 11:49am Top

All the DVDs, which were added manually, used to have a blank cover. Now they show up as blank little boxes. I would like to add the cover picture but don't know how to edit for that.

317lorannen
Edited: Sep 28, 2015, 11:57am Top

>316 FirstLChurchFF: I'm not sure what you mean by "blank little boxes." Looking at your DVD collections, I'm still seeing blank covers for most of them.

To change (or upload) a cover image, head over to the item's page, and click the "Change cover" link that appears below the current cover image. You have a few options for adding a cover:

- Using a cover image already on LT
- Uploading your own
- Grabbing a picture from elsewhere on the web

You can find instructions on how to add covers on this help page. If you still have questions, feel free to shoot me an email: loranne@librarything.com

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