Why I voted "no"? (Tag separation/combination) #10

The tag "Agatha Christie" could encompass books about her, while I would expect "auteur : Agatha Christie" to be used only on books she herself wrote: http://www.librarything.com/tag/auteur+%3A+Agatha+Christie#combine

It's not possible to tell whether "owned-hardcopy" means only "not an ebook or audio book", and not "hard cover" as well, so I am inclined not to combine it with "owned-physical-copy": http://www.librarything.com/tag/owned-hardcopy#combine

According to Wikipedia, 1939 World's Fair can refer not only to the 1939 NY World's Fair but also to a simultaneous event in San Francisco and Oakland.

There are at least two authors on LibraryThing called Kathleen Norris, both with hundreds of copies of their books represented. I've voted against combining the tags Kathleen Norris and Kathleen Norris (1947- ). I've also proposed separating Norris_ Kathleen_ 1947- . from Kathleen Norris.

>2 Edward: separation is needed here.

>5 Edward: Thanks. I've proposed the following separations from 1939 World's Fair:

• 1939 new york world's fair
• new york world's fair-1939
• ny world's fair 1939
• ny world's fair of 1939
• nyc - 1939 world's fair
• world's fair (new york 1939)
• world's fair (new york: 1939)

Apparently balneario means spa in Spain, but a seaside resort in Latin America. http://www.librarything.com/tag/balneario

There are a number of places called "Quebec" other than the province in Canada. (It's also the name of a couple of films.)

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Canada%3E+Quebec#combine

Robin Hood's Bay is in North Yorkshire, England (Wikipedia). Robin Hood Bay seems to be a variant spelling of Robinhood Bay in Newfoundland, Canada (Wikipedia).

>6 MarthaJeanne: Also Spa is the name of a town in Belgium, and a brand name for certain mineral water and sodas.

Although Samarkand is in what is now Uzbekistan, the city pre-dates the country by centuries, if not millennia. Books on its history are not about "Sarmarkand Uzbekistan": http://www.librarything.com/tag/Samarkand#combine

On the subject of synonymous tags, I have probably put in 500 different tags that I regarded as synonymous on various books over the years. This strated with my not remembering whether I taged a book 'railroad' or 'railway' and people here were very reluctant to combine them. So then I began tagging a few of my railroad books as raillway, and vice versa. So, then I started putting a lot more tags on my books, sometimes with the idea that I needed two tags that were synonymous, based on the idea that some people looking up a certain subject might not be precise in their understanidn of what many words mean, and so to faciltate those people in looking up books via tags might be able to find them -- this is certainly true for books that have less than 30 owners, and the current taggin is rather sparse. Another reason I've occasionally used for some books which have a bigger subject and a bunch of quite lesser subjects, and to emphsaize the larger subject, I've tried to think up a synonym for the greater subject so as to emphasize the larger subject. Of course, synonyms don't always exist.

So, because of my own practice, I am not sure that someone else's seemingly synonymous tags represents tags with different meanings or not.

To me, non-fiction writing implies "writing of non-fiction" and Non-Fiction--Writing implies "non-fiction about writing".

I think there's a clear tendency in usage in that direction. Even though non-fiction writing is already combined with various tags like non-fiction - writing, the top books on the combined tag include Good Prose: The Art of Nonfiction, Nonfiction Craft Lessons, and others specifically about writing non-fiction.

Non-Fiction--Writing has no books using the tag more than once, but the books with one use include Science Fiction Writers of America Handbook, How to Write Tales of Horror, Fantasy and Science Fiction, and some others about writing fiction.

Theatrical rehearsals do not always take place in theaters: http://www.librarything.com/tag/theatrical+rehearsals#combine

>13 lilithcat: I'm the only person using Theater rehearsals, and I'd understood "Theater" in this context to mean the art form rather than the building. I can't even remember whether The Habit of Art is specified as being set in a theater.

If actors distinguish between a "theater rehearsal" inside a theater and a "theatrical rehearsal" that may be outside, I'll happily change the tag.

I don't understand the meaning of the hyphens in Law-------------Military and Law----------Military, but neither seems to be used for books about Military Law.

I understand education science to mean "the science of education" and science education to mean "education about science".

There are several proposals equating eduction and education. While the first could be a misspelling, it is also a word in its own right.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/eduction+theory
http://www.librarything.com/tag/elementary+eduction
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Teacher+Eduction
http://www.librarything.com/tag/art+eduction
http://www.librarything.com/tag/character+eduction

People seem to use the Light and Shadow tag to refer to the Janny Wurts series Wars of Light and Shadow.

Many different books use a similar phrasing with ampersand, light & shadows.

I don't think that seem to is good enough. If the usage is mixed then I don't think it makes sense to keep them separate.

The Janny Wurts book was the fifth or sixth cover in, rather than first or second, from what I saw/

I could have sworn I posted a response to >18 karenb:, noting that the "Light and Shadow" tag was used for a slew of books other than Wurts'.

However, I'd still keep it separate from "light & shadows" due to the singular/plural issue.

>19 jjwilson61:

The usage numbers:

Shadow and Light is used by 12 accounts for 18 titles, 8 of which are the Wurts series.
light & shadows is used by one member on 20 works, only 3 of which are in the Wurts series.

>21 lilithcat:
Thanks, I forgot to point out the singular/plural difference.

I don't think English police novels is equivalent to literal translations into other languages such as Roman policier (this combination is being proposed indirectly via Novelas policíacas). At least some of the foreign-language tags are widely used for crime and mystery fiction that doesn't prominently feature police officers, such as The Hound of the Baskervilles and And Then There Were None, which wouldn't be described as within a "police" genre in English.

I've voted against the combination involving police novels, and also proposed separating police novel from Roman policier.

I believe that "Oeste" translates as "west", which is not the same thing as "western": http://www.librarything.com/tag/western#combine

And we've had the "novela"/"novel" discussion before: http://www.librarything.com/topic/85884
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Novela#combine

I would expect Geography / Maps and maps/geography to mean "geography or maps", and Geography - Maps to mean "geography, specifically maps". Consistent with this, the former tags are used for some geography books that don't obviously involve maps (e.g., Native American Place Names in Mississippi), and the latter isn't.

Some recent no-votes of mine:

The two tags proposed for combination with Technical Photography could just as well mean (and I think are intended to mean) photography technique. Likewise I think there's reason to believe that the proposal at photography technique is off, or at least similarly ambiguous.

Country:USA is used by the tagging organization to indicate where they are sending books (the top books are by British author CS Lewis).

-5th Century with 5th century. I think that hyphen might be to indicate BCE, and the 5th century tag is combined with several AD variants

XIXème siècle France and XXème siècle France refer to different centuries, the 19th and 20th respectively.

Similarly 19th- century cookery and 9th-century cookery shouldn't combined.

Twenty-first century › Fiction is the Library of Congress Subject Heading for fiction about the 21st century, and the only book with the tag was written in the 20th century. 21st century fiction is overwhelmingly used for fiction written in the 21st century.

English - 20th century - Drama is used only once, for a 2001 film, as part of the string "Women novelists, English - 20th century - Drama". This is not the same in usage or meaning as English drama -- 20th century.

At least one of the members using the tag "*German" frequently uses "*tag" as well as "tag". So for that person, using the asterisk clearly has a distinct meaning.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/%2AGerman#combine

Nederlandse literatuur is already combined with dutch literature. If this is correct, it shouldn't be combined with Dutch fiction as well.

I voted against all the combinations at Country:France. Again, unlike the tags it's proposed for combination with, those books have nothing to do with France, except insomuch as that's where the tagging organization is sending / has sent those books.

The proposal to combine Twenty-first century--Fiction and 21st century fiction has the same problem I pointed out in post 28: the former tag is an LCSH for fiction about the 21st century, and not necessarily written then.

These are always problematic as there are already versions of the first tag you mentioned with different number of spaces used in the tag which are already combined. Does the use 'century--fiction' make it LCSH and the use 'century - fiction' make it non-LCSH?

>34 vpfluke: That's a good point. I don't think the punctuation is significant, as different catalogues display different punctuation to divide the elements of subject headings.

I've proposed separating the following headings from 21st century fiction, as they're all used exclusively for fiction written during the 20th century and set during the 21st:

• Twenty-first century>Fiction
• Twenty-first century - Fiction
• Twenty-first century--Fiction.
• Twenty-first century -- Fiction
• Twenty-first century (Fiction)

More than one in three uses of the tag "doll's house" refer to the play "A Doll's House", rather than dolls' houses.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Doll%27s+House

ETA: there are more than enough series that treat devils as a type of creature that something referring to The Devil should not be combined with something referring to just "devil" in cases where the latter could be used generically.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Fiction+-+The+Devil

P.S. I'm back.

"United States - history - French and Indian War 1755-1763 - fiction" has a different date range than "http://www.librarything.com/tag/United+States-History-French+%2526+Indian+War+1754-1763-Fiction".

http://www.librarything.com/tag/United+States-History-French+%2526+Indian+War+17...

True. However, is there a historical debate about the start of that war that is reflected in the usage of these tags? Otherwise I'd say it's a typo.

>38 JerryMmm:

It may well be, but I also note that one tag is not used by anyone, and in those situations I am loathe to combine.

Then I'd really guess it was a typo and corrected by the user.

unused tags don't die either?

>40 JerryMmm:

Unfortunately, they do not.

>40 JerryMmm: You can actually create a tag combo with a never created tag, just by mistyping things, even.

Only one user has the tag "*italian", and that person also uses "italian". This person has many tags with and without the asterisk. So s/he clearly is making a distinction between the two.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/%2Aitalian#combine

LT does not make any distinction between upper and lower case when it comes to tags. So there is no reason to separate "HOBB" from "hobb": http://www.librarything.com/tag/HOBB#combine

BOOK. Spanish Language is used only for books about the Spanish language, by a user with many tags in the format "BOOK. [subject]". Spanish Language Book is used for books in Spanish that don't seem to be about the language.

The tag fiction collection is used mainly for collections of fiction – that is, anthologies and compilations. The tag collection:Fiction is used mainly for individual works of fiction, and I think it just means "fiction in my collection".

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Welsch refers to an author, not to Welsh. It should not be combined with http://www.librarything.com/tag/gal·lès

There are suggestions to combine http://www.librarything.com/tag/impremta with both 'press' and 'printing press'. Those should not be combined, so I voted no on both.

I think math foundations is being used for elementary mathematics education, and foundations of math is being used for the logical or philosophical basis of mathematics.

The only person using the tag "#astronomy" has several tags which she uses both with and without the "#", so that obviously has a specific meaning. So I would not combine it with "astronomy": http://www.librarything.com/tag/astronomy#combine

For similar reasons, I have proposed separating "*astronomy" and "astronomy*" from "astronomy".

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Harlem+%28New+York

There was a time when Harlem, New York was not part of New York City. I've also suggested separations for those that list New York City as proper combinations.

Surely "Sanskrit drama" could refer to drama in translation, while "drama in Sanskrit" would not: http://www.librarything.com/tag/Sanskrit+drama#combine

The tag "femme" is used primarily to refer to books about "femme" lesbians, and should not be combined with "frau": http://www.librarything.com/tag/femme#combine

I don't much like the combination of Frau with woman, either, as Frau can mean either woman or wife.
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Frau

http://www.librarything.com/tag/alltagspraxis doesn't seem to be in use, nor does http://www.librarything.com/tag/alltaxpraxis. Also Everyday life is not really a good translation. Alltagspraxis is a technical term that would not be used in everyday life. It seems to usually be translated with everyday practice or daily practice.

I voted against Cardinal John with John Cardinal, since while the first tag has one use of the Giles Blunt John Cardinal series books, it also has a book titled Catholic Charities USA (I assume that's a personal tag for some Catholic cardinal named John).

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Graham+Greene

compare http://www.librarything.com/author/greenegraham

Some of the tagged books refer to the Graham Greene born in 1952.

I cannot fathom why aurevoir has proposed combining the tag and julia child. cooking has received 3 "yes" votes and an "undecided".

Looking at the books tagged "600s", it is clear that that tag is not being used to mean "7th century": http://www.librarything.com/tag/600s#combine

Seems to me that http://www.librarything.com/tag/potetry could just easily be a misspelling of pottery as of poetry.

>58 lilithcat:

Agreed; in many cases it looks to be a Dewey tag.

"Whisky" and "whiskey" are not the same thing. Depends on where it's made.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/history+of+whisky#combine

"•Sholem Aleichem" is one of @gangleri's tags. He uses all sorts of symbols for his own esoteric purposes. I would not, therefore, combine this with "Sholem Aleichem": http://www.librarything.com/tag/%E2%80%A2Sholem+Aleichem#combine

http://www.librarything.com/tag/bilography is as likely to be a misspelling of bibliography as of biography.

>63 MarthaJeanne:

And Readings on Homer could be either or both.

#25 -

Looking at Amazon, the book Native American Place Names in Mississippi has at least one map in it, probably more.

#43

This member has lots of books doubled tagged with *xxx and xxx, including fiction, so I can't make the leap in my mind as to what the person intends, but I would not think that I would separate other tags like this based on what one person does. If I were going to use the tag *, it would be to flag some sort of alternative interest, but not that the compass of the subject or meaning of the tag has changed.

>66 MonarchVal: Actually, an unwritten rule, yet one most agree on, is you don't combine the word with a symbol to the word without a symbol.
Also, both of those votes were over a month old and closed already.

>66 MonarchVal:

Personally I use a symbol prefix to move something up a list which is otherwise sorted alphabetically (and where the sort order is fixed). So in my catalogue, the tags *ebook and *print are ebook and print titles respectively, the *prefix was just to move them up the tag list in the days before before we got the tag autofill functionality. At some point, I will change this - it's not necessary now we have the media field (and it was a handy way of flagging works where I had both versions).

>69 Maddz: Yes, I've also used symbols at the start of tags for sorting reasons, without intending to alter the meaning.

However, other people do use the symbols to change the meaning. In the case mentioned above (>43 lilithcat:), the person using the tag had it both with and without the symbol. That would seem to indicate that there was a difference in meaning.

Or he forgot one day to put the symbol before the tag.

I voted against the following:

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Swords+%232
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Swords+2 (different series)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Conan+%235
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Conan+%2305 (different books)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Guns+%2526+Roses (about the band)
https://www.librarything.com/tag/guns+and+roses (I don't think this is about the band at all, but rather related to the name of an anthology that includes the novella)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Mail+Order+Bride+3
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Mail+Order+Bride+%233 (different series)

The Postman Always Rings Twice is a novel by James M. Cain (and a film of the same name).

The Post-man always already rings twice is an essay by Dorion Sagan that appeared in the journal Cabinet 14: Doubles

http://www.librarything.com/tag/The+Postman+Always+Rings+Twice#combine

>73 omargosh:

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Conan+%235
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Conan+%2305 (different books)

Also? Both tags used by the same person.

Are single-book tags really that irritating, just for existing? Just wondering.

>75 karenb:
I'm not sure I understand the question, but I don't know why they would be irritating.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Agriculture+Cooperative

Cooperative Agriculture deals with working between farmers and making a go as a group.
Agriculture Cooperative could refer to a company like Southern States, which is a cooperative company that sells agriculture products.

I've voted against combining golf courses in the british isles and golf courses in britain. The British Isles are not limited to Great Britain or the United Kingdom, but also include the Republic of Ireland, the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/DDR

DDR could also be Dance Dance Revolution or Dumb Dumb Read

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Rhapsody has a wide range of different things. http://www.librarything.com/tag/rhapsodie only things about the musical form.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/musique+traditionnelle Traditional music in French seems to be very different from that in English.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Already+read can mean something very different from http://www.librarything.com/tag/read , the later of which can just as easily mean "to read" as "already read".

The only book tagged http://www.librarything.com/tag/Paris+walking is about walking from Paris, not walking in Paris.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/sequel+to

Sequel to is open to almost any book. Running With Scissors sequel shouldn't be combined.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/girls+basketball

Girls Basketball refers to young women who play basketball.
Basketball girls could also refer to the dance squads and other women who support basketball, not just the players.

"Winston Churchill" may refer to the Prime Minister, his MP grandson, or the American novelist. So that tag should not be combined with any more specific similar tag (one with a middle initial, for example, or birth/death dates): http://www.librarything.com/tag/Winston+Churchill

(I have proposed some necessary separations.)

>76 omargosh:

I only asked because so many recently proposed tag combinations seem to involve tags used by a single user for a single book. Are single-book tags that irritating, that they must be combined? Probably my real question is why do people propose tag combinations on such a tiny scale?

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Katherine+Howard

Katherine Howard (with the K and no dates) can mean many different people. Howard is a common last name, as is Katherine a common first name. So I don't think they should be combined with Catherine (with a C) that specifies dates for the Queen.

I've also proposed separations accordingly.

>86 gilroy: Thank you. I thought about it.

>85 karenb:
I don't think that's the motivation for the proposals. I think people just propose things they happen to find in search, and there are lots of singletons out there, and a lot of the heavy-use tags have already been done.

>85 karenb: I find one easy way to find tag combinations is to go through a book with a lot of tags and find matching tags. I assume, looking at their behavior, some other people looking to combine tags will search for variations on the tag. In either case, by the time you could know that they're single-book tags, you've gone through all the trouble, and I see no reason not to combine a tag just because it's only currently used on a single book.

>87 MarthaJeanne: I may not have gotten them all. Did that in a hurry. Debated separating Catherine from Katherine, but didn't think I'd get the same agreement.

>85 karenb: The real problem isn't that people propose combinations for tags on only one book, but that they do it without actually looking at the two tag pages or thinking about possible second meanings.

>92 prosfilaes: I see you have deleted that now, but I have suggested the separations that >2 Edward: shows are wrong.

Newer members (not you) may not be aware that we didn't used to have voting on tag combinations. There remain many combinations that wouldn't be accepted today. Rather than combine more tags in, it is better to take the trouble to separate out the more specific tags from the more general one.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/the+writing+business

Books tagged "Writing Business" actually deal with the modern publishing process and how to navigate that world.

Books tagged "The Writing Business" contains one biography about a writer and one fiction book by Hans Christian Anderson and Jane Yolen. So I'd say no go with this combo.

"Skönlitteratur vs. fiction" rears its head again: http://www.librarything.com/tag/English+fiction#combine

See previous discussion here: http://www.librarything.com/topic/84889

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Simenon

You can't combine a tag with a tag mash.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/family+business has plenty of fiction.
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Business%3A+Family+Business does not, nor would I expect it to.

I feel like this has been shot down once before:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/eduction

Eduction is a word in itself so tags with eduction, while they MAY be a misspelling of education, it could also be eduction itself.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/eduction+theory

>98 gilroy: Yes, we've seen that one before.

Sometimes I think it would be helpful to have disambiguation notices on certain tag pages.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/sculture+-+Africa

sculture could just as much be a misspelling of cultures as it could sculpture.

Another example of something we have dealt with before:
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Biografischer+Roman means biographical novel. There are other forms of fiction besides novels.

100

This is the one-off problem. The tag sculture is used only once on a book about masterpieces from Africa, much more likely a physical object, but not necessarily assuredly. I think only 3 own the book.

Not all airplanes are military airplanes (or "airplandes", for that matter): http://www.librarything.com/tag/Military+airplandes+-+Design+and+construction#co...

While some biographies are fiction, not all are: http://www.librarything.com/tag/lliterary+fiction#combine

Aside from the usual plural vs. singular issue, there are a significant number of books tagged "Butler" that are by authors of that name, not about the guy in charge of staff at an English country house: http://www.librarything.com/tag/Butler#combine

The one book tagged Greek; New Testment http://www.librarything.com/tag/Greek%3B+New+Testment is about New Testament Greek, not the Greek New Testament.

The only person to use the tag "#Maldives" has a clearly distinctive use for the "#" sign in his tags: http://www.librarything.com/tags/RobertSheppard_

http://www.librarything.com/tag/%23Maldives#combine

>100 gilroy:

sculture could also be a term that originates in that book, even.

Regarding juvenile french literature and French juvenile fiction, not all literature is fiction.

>109 Edward: And not all fiction is literature

"Surfing" and "romance"? http://www.librarything.com/tag/surfing#combine

And the proposer doesn't even have Gidget catalogued.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Oeste means West, not quite the same as Western.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Kate+Daniels+%281%29
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Kate+Daniels+%282%29
these are being combined with a different "Kate Daniels" series by a different author.

I voted against
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Morrison+David with
https://www.librarything.com/tag/david+morrison
The first is used on a book apparently co-authored by somebody named Morrison David Bial.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Morrison+James
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Morrison+John
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Randall+Ken
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Randall+Jack
I voted against the above four too, because I don't believe that the people/characters mentioned in the first tags have anything to do with the people/characters tagged in the corresponding proposal. I think they are unrelated people/characters that just happened to share a name, and may be like the Morrison David Bial case where they don't even really share the name.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Hugo+Finalist

If you're a Hugo Finalist, you're obviously a Hugo Nominee. However, if you're a Hugo Nominee, that doesn't automatically make you a Hugo Finalist...

And the suggested combos listed in >79 gilroy: are back again.
https://www.librarything.com/tag/DDR

They had a whole thread dedicated to them in fact:
https://www.librarything.com/topic/254244

http://www.librarything.com/tag/SF+Masterworks refers to a specific publisher series.

Economics and courtesy are not the same, even in children's books: http://www.librarything.com/tag/Economics+-+Juv+lit#combine

>117 lilithcat: Are you sure about that? After all, three people voted Yes.

>118 MarthaJeanne:

And they are all presumably readers, so they should know!

#117 was an error, I realised the second I submitted it & voted no to alert voters.

Novels are not the only type of book that comes in series: http://www.librarything.com/tag/first+novel+in+series#combine

There is more than one author named Winston Churchill, and this tag "Winston Churchill" could be used for any of them: http://www.librarything.com/tag/Winston+Churchill#combine

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Serial+murders+--+Fiction

Murders is not the same as murderers.

I have also suggested separating the murderers in there. Also two specific Wnston Churchills.

Because the one member using the tag "}Latin literature" has a private library, I cannot determine whether she attaches significance to the use of "}". I'd rather err on the side of caution and not combine that with "Latin literature": http://www.librarything.com/tag/%7DLatin+literature#combine

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Tags that say simply "Bible" and tags that say "Bible - O.T" or "Bible - Old Testament" should not be combined. Example: http://www.librarything.com/tag/Commentaries%3A+Daniel#combine

The Hebrew Bible doesn't have an "Old Testament", so tags using that are clearly referring to the Christian Bible and likely a Christian viewpoint on whichever subject it is. Tags without it won't necessarily be about Christian Bibles or the Christian religion.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/children+with+AIDS

Children with AIDS
AIDS in children

These may both be used on the same books, but children are not their disease.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Pacific+Groove+History

While in this instance it is possible that Groove is a misspelling of Grove, Groove itself is its own word and really shouldn't be combined with Grove.

>127 gilroy:

And there is a band called "Pacific Groove": http://www.pacificgrooveband.com/

https://www.librarything.com/tag/1+-+HOLLOWS and
https://www.librarything.com/tag/The+Hollows+%231 are used on unrelated books

https://www.librarything.com/tag/historical+fiction

This has to be a misclick. Someone proposes combining Historical Fiction with Ireland

>130 gilroy:

Or someone who doesn't understand tag combining. I've seen this kind of thing before, where someone wants multiple tags on a book and thinks this is how to do it.

Song of Solomon is not the same as Solomon. It is a book that he is claimed to have written.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Bible--Old+Testament--Song+of+Solomon

This has a lot of yes votes! (Nor is the book with the solomon tag about the same book.)

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Wallis

Several of the books tagged Wallis are about the painter Alfred Wallis, or by author Jim Wallis, and not about the Swiss canton also called Valais.

>133 MarthaJeanne: Yes, but they should not be there in the first place.
Wallis is the offical name and since it is bilinugal the French name is official, too. Why not combine things which are the same? Why are wrongly put tags more valid than the real object/subject?

>134 paulstalder: Why shouldn't they be there? That is just as valid a meaning of Wallis as the name of the canton.

>134 paulstalder: I think you are misunderstanding tags. Tags can be ANYTHING, with ANY meaning. So a tag for Wallis could be a name, a canton, a person's cat, etc. It MAY be a title, but not everyone tags like everyone else, so there is not ever something that "should not be there."

Tags which can mean many things cannot be combined with tags that can only mean one thing. So if Wallis were combined with Alfred Wallis and combined with Valais then Alfred Wallis and Valais will be effectively combined which is obviously wrong. So ambiguous terms have to, unfortunately, remain uncombined with anything (although I'd argue if one meaning were overwhelmingly used in the context of books then it could be combined with that meaning, but not many agree with me).

The only person to use the tag "*Ecclesiologhy" uses asterisks and exclamation points on many tags, in a lot of cases having the same word without the symbol. So I think it's fair to say that those symbols have meaning, and therefore should not be combined with "ecclesiology".

http://www.librarything.com/tag/%2AEcclesiologhy#combine

I voted against the following two proposals. They are currently just used on unrelated series.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Series%3A+The+Change
https://www.librarything.com/tag/series+The+Change

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Change+Series
https://www.librarything.com/tag/Series+-+Change

Prog can mean many things beside progressive rock. It's used for books about computer programming, for example.

The proposal to combine Bible. O.T. Samuel 1st--Commentaries. and Bible. O.T. II Samuel--Commentaries overlooks the different numbers – these are about 1st and 2nd Samuel respectively.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/caustion

could, of course be causation with a letter missing. But it could also be caution with an extra letter.

How do 4 people actually think "70" is the same as "Septuagint"? Yet again, a simple glance at the tag pages would show a complete lack of any relationship.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Septuagint#combine

Same user has proposed combining "ELS", which includes books about rapid transit systems, with Evangelical Lutheran Synod: http://www.librarything.com/tag/ELS#combine

>143 lilithcat: Also other abreviations with multiple meanings, but they are being voted down.

Another suggestion is more problematical. Song of Songs and Song of Solomon really do refer to the same book of the Bible.
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Song+of+Solomon
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs
The various translations of the title might be more in use in different groups, so one could argue to keep them apart, BUT both tags already have versions of the other one combined in. We need to either vote to combine them, which is the simpler solution, or do a lot of separations and recombinations.

>144 MarthaJeanne:

It's true that "Song of Songs" can refer to the "Song of Solomon". The question is, does it always. I was very curious about those related tags, "Humor" and "Wodehouse". It seems P.G. Wodehouse wrote a story called Jeeves and the Song of Songs. Having now read it (there's a .pdf available online), I find that the song referred to in the title is "Sonny Boy", a far cry from the Biblical reference!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs_(disambiguation)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Solomon_(disambiguation)

You are right. Both have other meanings. Guess I'll suggest the separations.

"adventure_sf" and "sf_adventure" could refer to adventures in San Francisco as well as science fiction adventures. Particularly in light of the fact that neither of those tags is used for any books, it's impossible to determine the meaning.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Science+Fiction+-+Adventure#combine

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Babylon+Project

Babylon Project (RP game) and Project Babylon (thriller) do not seem to be related.

The book tagged at https://www.librarything.com/tag/S%C3%A1nchez+Garc%C3%ADa also has a tag of Alfonso Sánchez García
The book tagged at https://www.librarything.com/tag/garc%C3%ADa+s%C3%A1nchez is by Javier Garcia Sanchez
Don't think they're related tags

"space fantasy" is not the same as "science fantasy", despite what 4 people think:

http://www.librarything.com/tag/science+fantasy#combine

(Also, while "no" is edging out "yes" for the proposal to combine "space heroes" with "planetary romance", a couple more "no" votes would not be amiss: http://www.librarything.com/tag/planetary+romance#combine)

The main user of medium-book also uses medium-audiobook and medium-ebook, so I think "medium" here means "format". Meanwhile, the only user of medium book also uses big book, so I think "medium" here means "of moderate length" or "of moderate size".

Niet lezen is being combined into "unread", but as most Dutch speakers would probably agree, "do not read" is a better fit.

>152 ianreads: Yes "unread" would translate as "niet gelezen" or "ongelezen"

NLP has other meanings beside neuro-linguistic programming. For example, 31 books are tagged both "NLP" and "natural language processing".

The Big Bang Theory is mostly used for the TV series with that title, so I don't think it should be combined with theory--Big Bang.

"Professional Growth & Development" is *obviously* not the same as "Personal growth and development", despite the five people who have voted yes.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Professional+Growth+%2526+Development

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Park+McArthur

Park McArthur is a sculptor. McArthur Park is a geographic term.

156, I must have been half asleep when I proposed this.

"colour red" refers to books about the color red. "color-red" refers to books whose covers are red.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/colour+red#combine

I'm wondering why some people are voting against combining "Linda og Valentin" with "Valérian et Laureline". If you look at the covers on both tag pages, you'll see that they are for the same comic book series. "Linda og Valentin" is the name of the series in Danish, and this tag is already combined with "valerian et laureline" (without the accute accent on Valerian).

I also voted against the proposals at https://www.librarything.com/tag/Color+-+Yellow

I voted against https://www.librarything.com/tag/Indiana+State since it's a reference to the university, not the entire state of Indiana.

hanes may well mean history in some language. (Welsh?) But it means something else to me.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/hanes

>163 MarthaJeanne:

Yes, 'hanes' is 'history' in Welsh, but I see what you mean. Is it also a US clothing company? If so, please vote my suggestion down.

>164 Cynfelyn: Not only a US clothing company, but a very well-known one.

http://www.hanes.com/

The only member using the tag "Mystery-WWI-1st" also uses "Mystery-WWI", and, looking at his tag list", clearly uses "1st" to distinguish certain books (first editions, maybe?).

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Mystery-WWI-1st#combine

Oscar Wilde is not Oskar Wild

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Oskar+Wild

see https://soundcloud.com/oskarwild

There are several proposals to combine tags using "Falklands" or "Falkland Islands" with tags using "Malvinas" or "Islas Malvinas". Though the names refer to the same place, the choice of which name to use has definite political meaning. That "cocktail party" conversation Tim talks about? Drinks could get thrown in someone's face over this.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/falklands+history#combine
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Falklands+War#combine
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Falklands#combine

>168 lilithcat: Sorry, I disagree. The suggested combinations aren't being political or judgemental about who does and who does not occupy these islands. It is simply a matter of fact that they are the Falklands in one language, and las Malvinas in another language. Other languages have then taken their lead from one or the other.

The tag Falklands is already translated into Islas Malvinas (Spanish) and Îles Malouines (French). Are these to now be voted down as well?

>169 Cynfelyn: They aren't simply the Falklands in English; articles like this Telegraph article use Malvinas as the English name of the article from the viewpoint of the Argentinians. E.g. "He said the note is aimed at "incorporating a new element of daily use to the inalienable demand over the Malvinas Islands." "

>170 prosfilaes: If the point you are making is that the Argentinian government calls what we call the Falklands the Malvinas, yes, absolutely, because they speak Spanish. As does the rest of the Spanish-speaking world.

The proposed combinations are matters of fact, which is perhaps more than I would say about the Telegraph's coverage of Argentinian affairs; think Breitbart on North Korea. Each have their own agenda, talking to their own constituency, and mutual understanding doesn't come into it. I certainly wouldn't bring the Telegraph to Tim's "cocktail party".

We are not supposed to combine tags that 'encode diffences in perspective or identity'.

>171 Cynfelyn: If the point you are making is that the Argentinian government calls what we call the Falklands the Malvinas, yes, absolutely, because they speak Spanish.

The sentence I quoted is not in Spanish, and just because someone speaks Spanish, that doesn't mean they use Estados Unidos or even México in an English sentence.

>173 prosfilaes: The sentence you quoted came from an English newspaper with its own agenda.

The tag 'USA' is combined with the tag 'Estados Unidos', and Mexico with México. Also New Mexico is combined with Nuevo México, and La Nouvelle-Orléans with New Orleans. Why? Because they're facts, regardless of the differences in perspective or identity some people might want to bestow on them. Similarly Falklands and Malvinas.

>174 Cynfelyn: The sentence you quoted came from an English newspaper with its own agenda.

That is exactly the point, is it not?

The tag 'USA' is combined with the tag 'Estados Unidos', and Mexico with México.

Yes, because they have the same meaning and perspective, because they aren't used contrastively in English or any other language.

I figured this would be obvious, but it has three yes votes:
https://www.librarything.com/tag/TIM

Trying to combine "Tim" with "Tim 'Ripper' Owens"

>176 gilroy: Do quotes still cause problems with tag combinations? Maybe someone was trying to combine "Tim 'Ripper' Owens" and "Tim "Ripper" Owens"

>177 norabelle414: I'm not sure. They might be.

>177 norabelle414:

That may well be, but it doesn't explain the "yes" votes!

>177 norabelle414:

Yes, I think they do. Here's another example: http://www.librarything.com/tag/%27The+Librarian%27#combine

Ack!

There is a proposal to combine "Comedie Francaise" and "Comédie Française" with "french comedy". The first two are the theater (building and company), the last are plays.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Comedie+Francaise#combine
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Com%C3%A9die+Fran%C3%A7aise#combine

There are two authors named Lucian K. Truscott, (Lucian Jr and Lucian IV), only one of who was a general.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Lucian+K.+Truscott#combine

I didn't like Música (interpretación) with Music Interpretation just because it could also be, ahem, interpreted to mean Music (performance) instead of the cognate.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/M%C3%BAsica+%28interpretaci%C3%B3n%29

The only person to use the tag "%New Age Music%" seems to use % and @ to differentiate tags. So I would not combine that tag with "New Age Music".

http://www.librarything.com/tag/%25New+Age+Music%25#combine

~muttering something about people who propose tags without actually looking at who is using them and how~

Bible> Message is used only for a Bible translation titled The Message, so shouldn't be combined with message of the bible.

>184 lilithcat:
I tend to stay away from tag combination because the criteria and purpose seems so fuzzy.

The %New Age Music% proposal is an example. If I voted, I would vote for combining them because
1) It won't affect the user that uses both %New Age Music% and @ New Age Music@, so the distinction will be maintained for them
2) For other users, the distinction is not at all obvious, and it seems like it would be more useful for them to be combined. It seems to me more likely that someone searching for New Age Music will be interested in Duality, than reject it as irrelevant because the tag has percent signs.

Basically, I don't see a distinction in meaning (for the general user), and I think the apparent difference in usage is only because it's a small sample set.

Please help me understand, if I'm wrong.

As I understand the consensus, only meaning and usage are to be considered - usefulness doesn't really enter into it.

(Which may be a good thing - useful to whom? Forming a consensus on what's relevantly useful would surely not be easy in many cases.)

>187 AndreasJ: Well then the consensus is wrong. If tag combining isn't useful then what's the point.

ETA: I've said this before but, just because something may seem like a consensus doesn't mean that you can't use your brain to decide for yourself what makes sense.

>188 jjwilson61:

Voting acc'd my personal ideas as to would be useful wouldn't produce something I'd consider useful, it'd produce a fractionally messier version of the consensus. I don't see how that helps anyone.

If the consensus is wrong, the potentially productive thing to do is to argue the superior merits of your ideas and hopefully changing the consensus.

>186 r.orrison:

I agree-- I've never found this a very compelling argument against tag separation. If someone appends weird symbols to their tags, but they clearly mean the same thing to an outside observer, I don't see a reason to not combine.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Fiction+Lowell book was written by Jax Peters Lowell
http://www.librarything.com/tag/Fiction+-+Lowell books are set in Lowell, Massachusetts

>190 Stevil2001: Under that thought process, why not just vote to put all tags on one page?

>192 gilroy: What, are you considering all letters to be weird symbols, and all tags to be those weird symbols appended to an empty string? I think there's a pretty clear difference between combing "foo%" with "foo" vs. combing "foo" and "bar" - unless you really are considering "f", "o", "b", "a", and "r" to be weird symbols appended to "".

I don't think we need to worry - nobody else would make that mistake, and if they did it would get quickly voted down.

>193 r.orrison: I was following the thought process to the logical conclusion if taken far enough.

However, I think there is a difference between foo% and foo. Especially if a person uses both foo and foo%. They have a difference for it, even if we don't know it. Then again, I also believe word order makes a difference, as do whether the word phrase has a separator or not.

*shrug* Again, that's all what I think. Never means I'm right.

>194 gilroy: Right - for a single individual user there may well be a clear difference in usage and meaning between foo% and foo. However, tag combining doesn't affect the usage of the tags for any individual user¹, so how a single user uses tags is irrelevant to tag combining.

Combining only affects the way that tags are presented in aggregate², and I believe that if there's no clear difference to others in meaning or usage in aggregate between foo% and foo they should be combined.

I am going to continue stay out of voting on such combinations, because obviously I'm not part of the consensus. As you say... *shrug*

¹ E.g. if I tag some books with "Shakespeare" and some with "sheakspear" and some with both for my own obscure reasons, they'll still appear as I entered them on my books, and will appear separately on my tag list in my catalog, despite the fact that they have been combined. Please correct me if I'm wrong!
² again... please correct me if I'm wrong.

>195 r.orrison: I disagree that you are not part of the consensus, and as someone who agrees with you I nudge you gently toward voting. There are plenty of us, we just don't post about it as much.

>195 r.orrison: Actually, the voting consensus normally does combine them. It's the minority that says no.

Interesting... I don't watch all tag combinations, and only check in on this thread occasionally. When I've seen such proposals mentioned here in the past, I don't remember there being much disagreement. I shall henceforth weigh in and be counted.

>197 gilroy:, >198 r.orrison: That is the beauty of tag combinations, imo. We can argue on the threads all we want to but when it comes down to it the votes are the only thing that matters.

>195 r.orrison: Please don't stay out. I'm going to continue voting for tag combinations that make sense for me, regardless of whether there's a consensus. How do you know there's a consensus anyway? Most voters probably don't post there opinion on these threads so there's no way to know what the real consensus is other than by voting.

>194 gilroy: And if we follow your thought process to its natural conclusion then no tags would ever be combined. It's all about finding a balance between too much splitting and too much lumping.

>200 jjwilson61: No, that would be the theory from >193 r.orrison: taken to conclusion.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Gl%C3%BCck

Glück is happiness
Gluck is a composer

>202 paulstalder:

If you want a combo or separation voted YES, you need this thread:
https://www.librarything.com/topic/171504

Putting it here encourages no votes.

>203 gilroy: Thanks, I put it there now.