Collections: Assignment User-interface 2

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Thank you, I'd stopped reading as the thread took too long to load.

I also stopped reading a long time ago, and even then had gotten a bit mixed up as to what the consensus was. Can someone give a condensed version of what the current state of the discussion is?

It had mostly descended into people teasing/whining about how collections are *never* going to get here, and Tim and Chris teasing and whining back. :D

"Sometime next week" is the latest date from Chris. I'm not holding my breath. :P

There was recurring bringing up of the fact that it's a little late in the process to add/change features, and how Chris may snap if he's asked to add or change anything else at this point, so the "recommending features" part of the discussion had died down a few hundred posts up.

There was discussion of how exactly things will work. Specifically, that some default collections (like "wishlist") will get automatically propagated by way of tags when collections comes on line (@541). And a rehash of the "all books" vs "your library" vs "wishlist must be quarantined" discussion, and how that's being handled, based on a screenshot of collections in the profile: http://www.librarything.com/pics/blog/collections_profile.png --but I'm not actually clear if that's the final version, or if _Zoe_ & co convinced them to change it again, per Tim @548 talking about "de-emphasizing" the library totals.

Tim posted a screenshot of a post-collections catalog: http://www.librarything.com/pics/blog/newcatalog.jpg and Chris posted some showing in-catalog collections work: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3564/3350971931_54f87f9485.jpg and http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3603/3351796634_b8d5f023eb.jpg

And a shot of the new Tags tab (which will now be "Organize", and also include collections editing and moving things between collections and tags: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3554/3350085725_6af48d7987_o.png )

That covers the last 200 posts or so. (Why are we using "Assignment User-interface" as the general collections update topic? Oh, LT, your organization is so intuitive!)

Thanks Melannen - that saved reading a lot of messages, I thought there was probably a lot of unnecessary stuff distracting those who are making it happen from the task at hand.
LT is a great tool - not sure why it still says "beta'

4> That's a very good summary (I was following the thread, and you summed it up great).

I joined in LT sometime in 2007, though I've used it in fits and starts since, becoming more addicted as of late. Since I joined, I remember people talking about collections...salivating over them really. They were never anything that really appealed to me all that much, or that I got hyped up over.

Yet, the fervor has gotten a bit contagious, and I find myself checking each day with a little bi of excitement ("are they here yet? are they here yet?!")

I'm not quite sure who to blame for this :)

>6 ty1997:
Extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds

Excellent synopsis melannen. Thank you.

Is the fact that my profile now says "1,761 books cataloged", with the whole thing being a link, (whereas it used to - this morning, even - say "1,761 books - see catalog", with just the last bit being linked) a tiny hint that they're on their way?

Or am I just reading signs and portents into nothing?

**goes to check cereal box for Flying Spaghetti Monster-shaped flakes**

7> As if I need help being delusional!

9>

It's definitely related. In fact, around the time that change was introduced a new list of Collections (containing a single, default collection) displayed briefly on a Profile page that I was viewing -- unfortunately, it was merely a taunting technical mirage, a furtive and fleeting glimpse of future glory, that disappeared with the next screen update.

>9 fyrefly98:

Yes and no. We pushed the profile page. It has collections, but only if the global variable is set. But yes, it's a sign.

>11 SilentInAWay:, 12

Ooh, neat. At least it's nice to know that I'm not imagining things.

Shameless teasers, absolutely shameless!

hehe I've come to expect the teasing. It's one of the "admin being level with users" things that I love about LT.... teasing back and forth with admins, that's not a common thing on most websites.

I'm just posting so this thread will appear on my homepage (in the 'My Posts' list that I normally keep up). Still want to keep track of this.

17>

That's rather impolite. You may want to consider starring threads instead -- if everyone posted just for the sake of tracking, Talk would explode.

Or you could be all sneaky and post something that appeared to be relevant, like "I can't wait for Collections!" and nobody would ever know it was just to make it trackable. :)

>18 lorax: No, LT may want to consider making it easier to keep track of the threads we're really interested in (say, with different-coloured stars, which I seem to remember them considering long ago). I've even seen the developers posting in order to keep track of a thread. If the site is set up in a way that encourages undesirable behaviour, don't blame the users.

19>

I'm not going to back down on this one.

There are ample ways to follow different threads. Choosing one that inconveniences everyone else, just because it's your preferred method, is just plain rude. I'm not asking the poster to make a bookmark, or put a link on their profile, or do any sort of complicated workaround -- I'm asking them to make use of an existing and easy-to-use mechanism.

But if everyone else were being significantly inconvenienced, that might actually lead the staff to do something about it, so that no one would have to be inconveniened.

Whereas if people choose to inconvenience themselves instead, then the staff might not realize there's a problem, so the inconvenience will persist.

Ahem. Derailing threads is also a bit of a no-no.

Boy, I'm really looking forward to Collections!

Didn't someone say that their "Your Library" tab changed to "Your Books"?

Mine hasn't changed ... :-(

>12 timspalding:
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

(Sorry, couldn't help it.)




>23 staffordcastle:
Neither has mine.

TiiIIIiiiIiIiiiIiiIIIiiiim...Anna's leg is touching mine! Quit iiiiit.

There are varying levels of tracking threads. I think that what's here is fairly well suited to most peoples' needs but I also acknowledge that a few extra features wouldn't hurt Talk much. :)

That being said, I'm posting so that this shows up on my Your Posts list. :) Mostly because I have so many posts starred to check on things that that's pretty useless for me right now since Collections has prevented me from clearing out my "Starred For Later" list.

>25 kawika:

*ksnort*

Now you owe me a beer kawika - the keyboard got that last mouthful! (Warning: I like REALLY good beer - so be ready.) - That expressed the whining moan so exquisitely....

ETA
PS. Confession - I also occassionally post relatively non-contributory comments to get a thread on the "My Posts" page - which I use for "active threads I am interested in" - I use "starred" posts for something else and it already is almost too long to be useful for THAT purpose and I try to prune it regularly. I use my Wiki-page for excerpting my posts that I want to reference later (with a link to the original post) and my "comments" are already long enough on their own without burdening them with another task (even with "archiving" which I use to keep track of yet another element of my LT experience). And that is not even including the multiple Word documents that start with "LTxxxx" that I cut and paste into to keep track of various OTHER bits of information - I think a need a few more tools...

lorax -- I don't hear you telling Chris there's a better way.

Usually I DO use starring to keep up with threads that I need to keep up with. But I'm usually staying on top of Talk much more than I have been in recent weeks. That's why I'm using just "Your Posts" right now to check on Collections threads.

I have 25 "Watched" groups - about 1/2 of which are relatively active - this gives me about 20 or so threads to read in "My Groups" whenever I check LT - which I do at least twice a day. (More on off days and weekends.)

I also leave my Talk set to "My groups." This gives me plenty to do without feeling overwhelmed - usually!

I'm about the same as PortiaLong.

As lorax said, I could have posted something 'relatively contributory' to get this thread on my Your Posts list - that's what I did in the other one (well, I actually had something to say, it showing up was just a bonus). This time I couldn't think of anything useful to say, but really didn't want to lose track of this thread - I've been following the other pretty closely, and have learned some useful stuff (not to mention fun). I could have taken 10 more minutes and come up with something neither purely self-serving nor annoyingly naggy...maybe. So yeah, it was a little selfish.

My Starred list is way too long (like others) - that's mostly 'useful data/links I might need later'. When I'm trying to follow a conversation, I generally put it into My Posts - until this one, it's always been by saying something. It's just because this is a Part 2 of an interesting conversation...that's somewhat stalled right now.

So next time I won't admit why I'm posting...I'll post a haiku or something instead. :)

So cD, have you chosen the Collections User-interface yet?

That's it!!! We need a collections haiku contest!!! And a collections bookstack contest!!!!

If there ever were an occasion for a celebratory contest, the introduction of collections is it.

(Please--anything to overcome this godawful watched-pot syndrome.)

Tim? Abby? Who's organizing contests these days?

Collections due soon.
Being snowed in sounds good, but ...
I've got a weeks leave!

Quick morning check-ins.
Followed by more checks that day.
Oh god! it's ----- more chat.

Yesterday's crocus
lies hidden by spring snowdrift-
still my hopes endure :-)

Surreptitiously
launched at midnight: a wond'rous
gift upon waking.

or

With pomp and fanfare,
unveiled one fine afternoon.
Dancing in the streets.

Wow.

I don't really care that much about collections (ducking) but the haikus — that's why I like hanging out with you guys.

40> that is just beautiful *sniff*

Okay, who's adding these to the LT Haiku page?

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/LibraryThing_Haikus

What is now a tag
will someday a collection be
Oh let it be soon

Okay, who's adding these to the LT Haiku page?

I'll do it.

Then I'll write some myself.

done (they're in a new section in the right column titled Awaiting Collections).

I also added:

Signs of spring labor -
With every false contraction
ten thousand hearts leap

and

In the morning air,
tweets of anticipation:
“Twaiting Collections”

These are great.

After brief down time,
A chance to read and savor:
Features now revealed.

I can't remember if this was asked or answered in the other thread: will there be a limit to how many collections we can have?

I vaguely remember something like - yes, there's a limit, not more than 128 user-created collections. Which should be plenty. Note that this is a vague recollection - I don't think it was even in the previous thread, but another thread a while ago.

>48 Thwaite:

I don't believe so -- or, at least, it will be so big that we don't care

>46 SilentInAWay:

Alternate version:

In morning air tweets
of anticipation flit:
“Twaiting Collections”

I have no idea which I like better...any ideas, fellow CollectionPoets?

...Clickety-clackety
Chris the Developer
Stared at his Talk page, then
Fled out the door:

"Save us!" he whimpered. "The
Natives are rising: to
Thingamabrarians,
Haiku means war!"

*scratches head* (sorry.)

awesome, melannen!!!

I don't feel this way, but some may feel affinity:

Perused but not owned,
And possessed yet not read, all
Welcome to now add.

An LT wishlist
that can be seen in All Books:
Will it be worth it?

(sorry, I had to say it!)

Higgledy-piggledy,
Wishlist and All Books may
Touch, and of that outcome,
_Zoe_ is loth.

(I have no preference,
But share my opinion that
Omnigatherium
Should be a sloth.)

I've heard it before
The long-awaited tool
I'm not holding breath

A few more:

Poets, Pirates! Shun
he who cries “Collections Ho!”
on April Fools’ morn

Categories planned,
our interests peak, pumps all primed
for when the bit flips

Does anyone know
if we’re Waiting for Godot
or The Great Pumpkin?

winter is now past
a long wait grows yet longer
will April bring gifts?

teacups are empty
many wait with bated breath -
a watched pot won’t boil

leaves rustle softly
books wait with long patience for
concatenation

divide and conquer -
scattered libraries will be
reunited soon

endless rows of shelves
books that wait for a reader
contagion of minds

Two more weeks, dear friends,
two weeks! Collective breath held:
uh oh. Feeling faint...

Once this thing goes live,
cD takes a holiday?
I hear Ode to Joy.

My books, collecting
nothing but dust. When will these
Collections go live?

(not that I feel this way either; call it poetic license.)

Collections

I had
Given up hope;
Suffered so much in vain.
But Easter approaches, and so
I hope.

Cinquain

Edited because I can't get the syntax for the href tag stuck in my head at all!

For an Elephant
Gestation's 22 months;
We'd have one and change.

;)

I loved #40, and melannen is my heroine of the day - thanks for that wikipedia link!

>62 felius: Bwahaha! Nice one.

dreams melt with the dawn;
where words should be, still silence-
meaningless and cold.

Ice drips in the pond.
Circular Venn diagrams
Fading to nothing.

I have heard of it.
Hmmm,does it really exist,
Should I hold my breath?

The goldfinches dance,
hope of spring. Collections now!
I can't stand the wait.

While we may trigger
Schrödinger's cat's demise, our
uncertainty stays.

Which circle of hell
is reserved for coders
who prolong the wait?

From Hades' clutches
none but a Vogon Orpheus
can free this feature.

Patience, pirates! - Crow
must simmer for months before
it's ready to eat.

The sun rises everyday
I check LT so frequently
why aren't they here?

LT works best with tags
unique as summer meadow's flowers
who needs collections anyway?

An eon is ancient time
when TIM first posted news that
they will be here, soon!

The spring birds twitter.
Or does Tim tweet promises?
Will they both lay eggs?

Developing a
Patient attitude makes one
a better person.

It's heretical,
but I don't really need 'em.
Tags work fine for me. :-P

Yet another day
Logged into LibraryThing
No collections here

yesterday's sunshine
has vanished in mist and snow --
disappointment's tears.

Collections haikus? I love you guys.

75: no, abby, you need one more line ;-)

Collections haikus?
I really love all you guys:
LibraryThing's special!

Only two more days!
You know it can't be longer -
when but April 1st?

(edited to remove extra syllable)

Nobody expects
the Spanish Inquisition!!
(it's no use guessing)

Overrated, our
Ontologies wax and wane:
One, good as 'nother.

winter's credit crunch
promotes spring's most popular
@library_book

.

collections reveal
my library's paucity
more "wishlist" than "bought"

.

LT users keep
yearning for collections launch
a secret from Tim

.

if time lies heavy
add collections tags today
ease traffic on launch

Collections ready?
Check again in a fortnight.
Eternal return.

Couldn't we take a break from collections and get touchstones to work?

Robert

What value's a stone
beside this magic basket?
Collections wins!

>82 Mr.Durick:

Blasphemy! Why, Collections will be here "soon"! We can't give up now!

It seemed to be close
Two weeks ago and more, but
Now all is silence.

We promise you, Tim,
once collections have arrived
we'll still tag our books

Entranced by haikus,
Collections long forgotten.
Someone please save me!

Haikus are great fun
But part of me wants to hear
A dirty lim'rick

to bed by candlelight -
perhaps tomorrow's sunrise
will lighten our hearts.

>88 saltmanz: - How about?:

Collections are very near,
Portia awaits with a beer,
-- Comes up with a plan,
-- To self says, "I can -
Pleasure mySELF 'til they're here."

(Okay, not great but ... does anyone have any spare batteries?)

90: *gigglesnorts!!*

I suck at haikus, but I loooove reading all these! Makes the wait a little more bearable!

Perhaps we should turn
Our Love of Haiku, into
a feature request?

Thesis nearly done,
Will have to get full time job
If 'Collections' don't soon come

Haikus are but a
Temporary distraction.
Let's have progress now.

for a while we heard
echoes of far-off battle -
why now the silence?

I click on the link
I look at "Your Library"...
Still no collections!

Should we change the word?
Maybe the word "soon" should mean:
It will never come.

Avast, me maties!
Fine collections of treasured
Books, and such like. Arrr....

Why fix what breaks?
New Features grow all the time
Tree limbs in the wind.

Perfect collections?
Another idea in fractal mode
How long do we wait?

Scales of balance
will it work as we demand?
How long do we wait?

Three on the same theme, I'm not sure which works best.

98> I'm resonating with #2. If there are still bugs, so what, release the feature. It's not like there are no bugs in the rest of the site.

So many delays
What are we waiting for now?
Progress report, please.

> 100.

My favorite one yet.
I second _Zoe's_ request.
So what's going on?

Such silence must mean
Brains furiously working
Hope in the quiet

All these haiku, and no seasonal references? Bah, surely we can do better.

Cherry blossoms bloom
Tim tells us "Wait two more weeks"
Collections don't come

Tomato season!
Tim says "Two more weeks, I think"
Collections don't come

Maple leaves are red
Tim says "Collections? Two weeks"
But they do not come

Snow falls in Portland
Tim and Chris say "Just two weeks"
Collections don't come

Cherry blossoms return
Promises of two more weeks
And yet still we wait

Collections

Just thought it was time for the Touchstone to appear in the corner.

Yay! Things are different!
There's no table around the numbers of people and popularity of books on the books pages. And those shiny new buttons!
Oh, and a "fatal error"!

Sorry, no haiku from me :(
I don't do poetry.

Sorry. Somebody pushed some collections-related code. Only problem was that they only pushed one file related to collections. That results in problems. :)

It's ok. Still exciting :D

So when are you going to push the rest of it?

I'll never tell.

Honestly, I've been having to do some middle management this week (lots o' fun) so I think we've probably delayed the release a couple of days.

Then again, the work this week may free up a couple of programmers to help push collections out.

on the edge we stand,
gazing at far horizons -
don't look down now!

anything to declare?
two weeks. that was last months quote
anything else? two weeks.

time keeps on slipping
slipping into the future...
as does Collections

Library, wishlist
TBR, all in one pile
Summer sun beckons

Sent forth as a wish
Through the ether to be read
Yet still is not owned

Collections, purportedly near
Have decidedly yet to appear
If you ask me what day
They'll debut, I must say
I'm more comfortable guessing the year

***

Collections are near!
And I've a bridge in Brooklyn
I'd like to sell you

***

A cure for cancer
A worldwide end to hunger
And Collections, please

Collections won't miss,
We've faith in our Chris!
There are those who have doubts,
You've heard all their pouts.
But Collections will bring us all bliss!

>111 readafew:

LOL @ #2. That refrain is just stuck in my brain now.

Motion, a necessity of action?
Time, an accident of motion?
Collections, a victim of time?
Tim's Plutonian weeks are Greek to me!

>114 cyderry: That's a good one

Collections will bring us all bliss
Collections will bring us all bliss
Collections will bring us all bliss
What I tell you three times is true.

But I think that collections are, so to speak, 'snarked.'

Hmm, I shouldn't have thought of that poem. Now I can't help imagining Tim and Chris hunting the Collections monster with thimbles and care.

"We believed in collections, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that's no matter-tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther.... And one fine morning--"

I was so excited - 118 new collections-related posts since I last checked less than a week ago. Alas, they're almost all haikus or bickering about how to track posts. Sigh. Although I must admit that the whole haiku thing is kinda humorous

A harbinger of
Collections' pending release?
No, just some haiku.

From www.beerhaikudaily.com :

In our neighborhood,
The beer coolers overflow

With special requests.

and

Cold despair after
Cruelly broken promises.

But at least there’s beer.

or

Patiently waiting

for the beer bar to open

stacks of clean glasses

soon

The barroom hubbub

punctured by crashing glasses

followed by cheering

now

Due to the pounding

I’ve re-read that last sentence

Six or seven times

I waited for you
winterlong; my ice will thaw
as spring brings wishlists

(the above was inspired by the Pixies)

Lust rises and falls
my yearning for Collections
like changing seasons

I await true Spring
with pink flowery scents and
Collections in bloom

Thanks to SilentInAWay for getting me off my behind to work some haiku magic!

115 > ;)

Sometimes an outage
just means a sysadmin wakes;
still no collections.

Chirps cut through silence,
do birds break dawn in darkness?
No. @%&^ing pager.

>119 ojchase: ojchase - Believe me, if collections are released and you're not on LT for close to a week after that happens, there will be tenfold (at least) the 118 posts you came back to this week.

How many syllabels does @%& have?

Nice catch though, it was only down for a few minutes.

Temporarily Down
We hope with baited breath
Is it for real today?

Warm days and cold nights
They call it earthquake weather
Still nothing' shakin'

anyone see the widget post today?

"Other LibraryThing people helped. Chris—hard at work on collections, we promise—chipped in some attractive styles. "

Doesn't look like April 1st is the day after all, then?

125:)

In southern darkness
felius slumbers once more
his work quickly done.

meanwhile...

In morning sunshine
we weep in disappointment:
no collections yet.

Hmm, I wonder. Temporarily Down means no collections, alas.
Do we need a Permanent Down to give us collections?
If so, how will we know? Bleak thought.

first of April - Spring?
no, thunder splits the grey clouds -
snowing sideways, now.

(gwernin told me about the haiku, so I had to come read, and having read... )

Collections rumors,
what is this conversation?
Expectations fade.

no collections yet?
the long awaited feature
prompts my bad haiku.

Strutting sexily
"Ready for close-up, Sir Dawg"
Collections proclaims

a wintry morning:
at sunrise, no tracks disturb
the white sheet of snow.

It isn’t right for us to bicker,
Collections will get to us quicker.
To bend the rules
On April Fool’s,
They pushed it out, but as Confickr.

another sunrise.
a day without collections.
sun sets long from now.

>137 Larxol:
Mwahh, mwaah
All of you who have your minds and your ports open to my invidious Confickr/Collections worm now have your computers taken under my control...

Now, is it @Wishlist that goes to the "Not owned but not read and not shelved" or is that @LibraryBooks? Read and owned, but not shelved goes to... Oh what the heck... Go botnet, Go!

What is the sound of the single hand coding?

>140 klarusu: mouuahahaha good one ;)

two more weeks, they say -
new servers needed for load -
still no collections!

Did they actually say two weeks? they needed new servers for load?

They did say they are thinking of waiting until after the new servers are up before releasing collections, but it's not final.

Collections are always two weeks away.

Until, suddenly, they appear.

>144 readafew: I must have missed it. But it sounds like a good idea tech wise. Not a good idea in general as it means more waiting.
> 145 Your right, :-) always two weeks away...then bang. hopefully!

here's the post: http://www.librarything.com/topic/61529

I have never cared too much about collections, but this is starting to remind me of this game I wanted to play once.

Oh, now that hurts. You actually went there?
Duke Nukem?
Really?

Ouch.

It stings a bit.

I was getting ready to post something similar, I didn't realize they were still supposedly working on it until that wiki article.

disappointment now,
sad sighs of resignation:
let's start a new thread.

(edited to correct word)

That's funny. I had thought that development on it had ceased also. It's gonna have to be one hell of a game to live up to a 12 year development cycle.

Heh. Yeah. The fact that it was still in development and that there are forums of people awaiting its arrival blew me away.

I actually read the whole article, and I got the definite impression that this guy Broussard is really the problem behind it not getting complete. As a software engineer myself, I got the impression I would never want to work for him. It's hard to hit a target if it keeps moving...

It's hard to hit a target if it keeps moving...

Nah, you just need an automatic weapon...with lots of bullets. 8^}

Loved the "this has nothing to do with collections" or whatever note when the site was down :P

>156 unsuspected: I have only the faintest hopes that it will make any difference ;)

Collections development and migrating to new server infrastructure are things that are happening in parallel - neither one is holding up the other. We won't be cutting over to new servers at the same time as rolling out collections (hear this, Tim?). I couldn't tell you which one will happen first.

Right. They are completely unconnected except that we won't try to do them on the same day. Then again, John doesn't control the code. Chris and I just might do it on the same day, because, well, we're that way.

:-D

>158 timspalding: What way? Love to live on the edge? ^_^

Some things we do because we can.

So, let me guess. "Soon", right?

Be right back. Off to correct the meaning of "soon" in my dictionaries...

Any updates? A few days? A week? Month? Year?

I checked conceptDawg's Wikipage, and it still says that he hopes to have it out by February 25th, March 9th, etc.

This is getting ridiculous. Can't you guys just say "no, you annoying little twats we are not going to release it this week, we only plan to do it sometime in May*" or whenever you will actually DO it instead of this whole "maybe yes, maybe no" business. Just be a little less vague about it?

We don't want to hear "soon, soon" all the time. If it's NOT soon just say so, I'm sure we can take the disappointment!

Edit: *or "we only plan to do it sometime in May 2010" ?.

And I just want them to STFU and deliver. My biggest disappointment is not that collections isn't here, but that Tim & co. don't seem to understand that giving dates and failing to deliver by those dates is disrespectful to your users. Changing the roll-out date once or twice is okay, because stuff happens and we all understand that. But collections have been "two weeks" away for at least the last six months that I've been paying attention. I don't want another date or approximation, because it's only going to be met with skepticism and cynicism. We can't trust anything they say on the subject anymore.

Aw, I'm going to miss all the suspense once we get 'Collections'. It's a comforting constant. Then Tim & Crew will just have to promise something else so I can keep myself occupied ;))

I wouldn't even mind the fact that they're failing to deliver on the dates if they'd just let us know what's going on. When the expected dates come and go, I think we at least deserve a post explaining why. What progress has been made in the past few weeks, and what remains to be done?

>165 The_Kat_Cache: "My biggest disappointment is not that collections isn't here, but that Tim & co. don't seem to understand that giving dates and failing to deliver by those dates is disrespectful to your users. "

and

>167 _Zoe_: "When the expected dates come and go, I think we at least deserve a post explaining why. "

Completely agree.

Look guys, I hear where you're coming from. It is disrespectful. I'd qualify that with the notion that we talk to our users, and most sites don't. You don't know or have say in how Facebook does its work, except that recently a few big sites like that have become so big that the users can successfully revolt. You don't want that model.

Anyway, I'll get together with Chris today and see if we can get a firm expected date.

T

Thanks Tim. I'd also second what Zoe said: "When the expected dates come and go, I think we at least deserve a post explaining why. What progress has been made in the past few weeks, and what remains to be done?"

What happened that Chris thought it would go live February 25th, and now a month later, we still don't see anything? I ask that not as a user trying to raise more hell, but as a user who's genuinely curious.

No, I hear you. We'll post something about it soon.

We'll post something about it soon. (#171)

Sorry to be such a cynic, but that sounds a little too familiar by now.

If I were Tim, I don't think I'd even bother posting dates. The constant "are we there yet? are we there yet?" is getting kind of irritating. I mean, geez, some people have been waiting years for this feature. So what if it takes another month?

Well, we're going to get together later this afternoon. I need to make a decision about how to allocate resources. Chris is not to blame for the lateness of collections—he shares some blame, but so do a bunch of us—but he is currently at the center of it. Mike and Luke have come free from widgets. So I have to decide if they can help collections move along. On the one hand, more is better. On the other, more in computer code often isn't. (See The Mythical Man Month.)

So, we'll hold a Council of Elrond later today, and see who gets to accompany Frodo.

You have my axe!

> 174 "Mike and Luke have come free from widgets."

And was there a great sticky *SMACK* sound as they pulled loose?

>174 timspalding: And waiting around for a feature for years, being told its release is "soon" and "imminent" and then getting no update when an even generous application of time to those terms has gone by isn't annoying? I even posted in another thread a question about pencilling in a time period and that was just ignored. I've said it before and will restate it now: LT's staff is great about communicating except when it comes to collections.

It's not about how long it's taken to release the feature. If staff had come out when the whole project was scrapped that last couple of times and just said, "Look, we know you want this feature. We want this feature just like you do. However, these problems have cropped up and what we currently have just isn't going to work as well as we'd like. We're sorry, but collections needs to be put on hold for the time being while we figure out a better way to make it work and do all the wonderful things we envision." Seriously, that's all it would take and most users on here would be disappointed, but understanding. It certainly doesn't help that what will probably be the most used features are already available on sites that are inferior to the cataloging here, so combine that with the frustrations of deadlines come and gone with NO communication and then built up expectations only to see deadlines come and go again, and that's what you have now.

eta: I'd also like to add that the stfu comment is more harsh than what is warranted, but it does illustrate how frustrated some people are regarding collections and how its been handled.

Any time is fine. Just happy you're here.

snow covers the ground;
new shoots lie frozen and cold:
will spring come at last?

If everyone would stop bitchin' about the wait and leave them alone, they'd have more time to work on it and might get it done faster. Stop with the haikus that they have to wade through to make sure that they get any necessary messages and they have more time.

I was one of the people advocating less complaining just a few weeks ago, when it seemed like collections really were imminent. Not so much anymore.

The haikus are not the problem.

Yes, true.

blood on monitor
teeth grind to gritty dead dust
a scream chokes the throat

Well, the week of leave (vacation for the foreigners) that was centred around April Fools Day (which seemed a very apposite delivery date) has now expired. My thumbs have worn down from twiddling. Still, I did manage to catalogue a few more books. I'll have four days over the Easter holiday, however ...

tim, you could surprise us and roll them out tonight!

(hey, I'm trying to be an optimist here! :)

>185 ty1997: dream on.

I do not complain:
skipping three lines is easy:
white petals fall like snow.

I'm going shelf by shelf through all my books adding CK wherever I can. I have enough to keep me busy for awhile.

Good project, MerryMary!

I'm going shelf by shelf through mine flushing out the books that haven't been entered in LT because they weren't in my database - more than I thought there would be!

I'm finding some of those, too.

>166 klarusu: Yup, me too!

>176 Suncat: hehe

With a resounding
*SMACK*, Mike and Luke have pulled loose
from sticky widgets

will the time-sink of
preparing for collections
capture them instead?

>188 MerryMary: Same here. The 'imminent' release date, whenever that may be, is pushing me to tidy up my LT space so that I'll have nothing to distract me from organizing my books in collections when they arrive. Thing is...I could probably 'tidy' forever. Hoping that Collections gets here before then:)

So, we had an all-LT meeting—Tim, Chris, Mike, Luke, ChrisC, Casey, Sonya, Abby and discussed:

1. Server issues and the move to a new colo
2. A widgets post mortem and how widgets ran over schedule, with an eye to..
3. Collections, and how to get them out.

I won't recount #1, but fun was had by all. We all agree that colo and collection issues are not related, but that we wouldn't release both on the same day. If we have that opportunity, great. Members will love us two days in a row.

On number two, we spent a lot of time talking about process and about the eternal problem of software development—why things run over schedule. As is often said, the easiest product is one made by one person. Multiple developers means communication, and communication problems.

We identified five communication problems, relevant to both widgets and collections:

1. Classic "feature creep"
2. Insufficient initial goal- and vision-setting.
3. Employee asychronicity (we're all in different places and work different hours)
4. Some code-documentation issues (worse for widgets)
5. Communication with members

On collections these applied, and we're solving them as follows:

1. Collections became a snowball, collecting all sorts of side features. For example, collections got stuck onto a catalog-navigation redo. As of last week, if not before, we set a firm line on not adding new features of any sort to collections. The pain point—the thing we all hate—is decided not to co-releasing the better "+ Add to my library" button onto collections. We are close, but we're not close enough, and getting that right is NOT worth delaying collections any longer."

The main problem with feature creep at LT isn't so much the creep, but not releasing things in pieces. In some sense LT is a GIANT feature creep—it started with just basic library cataloging; LT is the creep! But feature creep goes bad when the features stick together, and you can't get them out bit-by-bit. This makes members unhappy—and demoralizes programmers.

2. Bad initial goal-setting. Collections had a few stats and stops over the last few years. Except for the problems of #1, this hasn't been a problem this time around. If there was any doubt, I made sure people understood my "vision"—a vision of Hell, which is where we'll be if we don't release collections very soon. On widgets, this was totally my problem—I initially envisioned a fairly modest improvement, so Luke didn't rewrite the lowest level of code to cope with all the weight it was eventually to bear.

3. Employee asynchronicity. We've agreed to a daily 3pm meeting with all team members required and all LT employees encouraged to hear what's happened with collections in the last 24 hours.

4. Code documentation. Actually, not much a problem with collections.

5. Communication with members. As a general matter I underscored that the LT "way" was to talk a lot about everything, and that the programmer who made something bears primary responsibility for talking about it.

On collections, opinion here was mixed. I raised the idea that by not talking enough recently, members have become pissed off at us. John said that we stopped talking because we promised deadlines and missed them, and crying wolf (or maybe "crying ice-cream truck!") was worse than not talking.

Some results:

1. Mike has been tasked to help Chris with IE (mostly IE6*) testing, which is something Mike has gotten very good at, and which he can do without going too far into the code.
2. Luke has been tasked to take over everything he can from me—mostly admin scripting for feeds and for username changing and collection-moving. This will free me up to work with Chris the rest of the time.
3. Abby, Sonya et al. have agreed to follow the issue closely, and lend encouragement and pile shame on us as necessary.

Frankly, as I mentioned above, we were in some disagreement about whether we should talk about deadlines or not. So, rather than promise X, I'm going to simply let users into what we said.

Chris "wants" to release it this weekend. He's not sure—and I'm frankly skeptical—that we're that close. Chris' fallback was that, even if we couldn't release it, we could release it for beta testing. I'm not sure of that either, but I think he's right that if we could get it out there for members to hack away at—presumably just members of the Board for Extreme Thing Advances (membership automatic if you ask)—it might reduce some of the member pressure, and also get us good feedback.**

I asked what we could realistically promise. Chris said two weeks. John said don't promise anything—we're just setting ourselves up for failure. Rather, we should just release it some day and that's that.

So, that's what we said. My decision is that we're going to keep TALKING about this every day. And after each meeting I'm going to type up what we said and thought. Starting tomorrow, I'll also start making lists of what's "left," so members can assess progress better.

Thanks for your patience, your lack of patience, your support and your anger. As you can see, I've stopped short of any pledge, other than to keep you in boring and extreme contact with what's going on. I am hopeful we can do better than that, and if not, at least your anger will be better informed!

*We had a long tangent on when LT should drop IE6 support. The answer is: Not very soon. Facebook has dropped support, but our users are still 10-15% IE6. It's a bitch, and a serious drag on everything JavaScript-dependent, but IE6 is with us for a while longer. If you want to help us out, however, and you're an IE6 user, consider switching to Firefox as soon as you can.
**Luke raised the point that it's Easter. A bunch of us are going away or spending the day trying to convince our toddlers to find eggs.

> 192

If you want to help us out, however, and you're an IE6 user, consider switching to Firefox as soon as you can.

Some of us can't, period. Because it's not our decision to make.

I'm on Firefox at home, but I do access LibraryThing from work, and there I'm stuck with IE6 and can't do anything about it. It's a problem (can't get to my home page, often can't get to my catalogue, search takes a gazillion years, etc.), but what can I do? We're the same gazillion years behind the times in our computer set-up, and that's not likely to change any time soon.

I bet I'm not the only one in that boat.

I'm moving the IE issue to another thread.

Here's the link: http://www.librarything.com/topic/61916

Thanks so much for this update. That's all we wanted, really. Now you've delayed the personal attack on you and Chris by LT members for at least three days, ha!
Two weeks sounds fine to me, it's not that long. Besides we wouldn't want you guys to miss out on Easter with your families! :)

Thank you so much, Tim -- this level of communication is amazing.


I asked what we could realistically promise. Chris said two weeks. John said don't promise anything—we're just setting ourselves up for failure. Rather, we should just release it some day and that's that.


I don't think there's a single LT member who would believe "two weeks" right now. "Sometime this month", sure. Even "one week" would get takers. But "two weeks" has been kicked around so long that it's just going to seem like a joke at this point.

amazing frankness!
this is what makes this site so
special to us all!

Fantastic post, thanks! As long as we're getting progress updates, I really don't care how long it takes.

I do think it would be good to have a BETA release first, this weekend or next weekend or whenever. I can just imagine the crazy number of posts that you'll have to wade through when the feature is finally released, and I think it will be a lot more manageable if everyone isn't talking all at once.

Also, a belated response to your earlier post: we talk to our users, and most sites don't. You don't know or have say in how Facebook does its work

I hope you know how much the users appreciate this. Even though Facebook is more popular, its regular users don't necessarily like it. I think liking is important. If LT were like Facebook, we wouldn't get so angry because we wouldn't care so much. And everyone would be worse off.

>196 lorax:

I know. John said that we can't use the phrase "two weeks" even if it's true. It may be true here. But it's also a sort of programmer thing. A programmer—me included—thinks ANYTHING can be done in two weeks. Two weeks is an ETERNITY. Whoops, it's day 14? Well, I can get it done in two weeks from now...

>198 _Zoe_:

If we do a "beta" it's going to be special. You'll be able to use the feature but we will make NO promises that your collection assignment will stay. It will be for testing and that's that.

I'm glad that LT users stage their protests all through. The Facebook dynamic is dysfunctional. They ignore their users until they make the change. Then they wait to see if the users are irritated or really pissed off. There's a reason democracies work better than monarchies punctuated by bloody massacres.

You'll be able to use the feature but we will make NO promises that your collection assignment will stay.

That seems reasonable, as long as no other data is lost. I wouldn't want my reading dates to disappear just because I was testing collections.

Thanks for the update - your frankness is appreciated.

I'll say that I agree with Luke - holiday releases are generally le suck. Not everyone wants to be there for them, people are actually off and able to test and will have LOTS to say and your staff will want to do other crazy things like let short people hunt for eggs left behind by bunnies. Other things should take priority.

Now, the weekend after...that sounds great. :)

They ignore their users until they make the change. Then they wait to see if the users are irritated or really pissed off.

Sorry, I just have to say it: I hope you remember this next time you consider removing a tab ;)

Sorry, I just have to say it: I hope you remember this next time you consider removing a tab ;)

I hope you remember that I can remove tabs just for one user too! :)

>204 timspalding: Are you offering customization? I thought you didn't want to go that route :D

196, et. al.
Actually what I said was:
I'm aiming to be finished by this weekend some time but that could get pushed back a few days. We like to launch new features on Mondays so that would push it to the following monday, hence "two weeks" from today. But I quickly followed that up with a comment that using the term "two weeks" will get nothing but anger and rolling eyes from our members. Understandably.

So, we are hoping for this weekend. We are aiming for next weekend. Easter will probably trump that and push it one MORE week, but sometimes those things happen. Hardware issues/rollover could push us a day or so one way or another.

Hee Hee. And we promise to postpone any bloody massacres.

Live dangerously. Launch on Thursday...8^}

I would love to read the updates on this, but this thread is now over 200 messages. That can be fairly long loading times for some of us. Is it unreasonable to ask for a new topic for this?

No, we can start a new topic on collections. I'll do that. I'll start it with Tim's long essay.

Here you go, a new thread just for this discussion:
Collections: Update: April 6, 2009

This thread is now "officially" dead. Move along. Nothing to see here.

>192 timspalding:

I'd love to join the Board for Extreme Thing Advances. I can work on FF 3, IE7 and IE6 (like lilithcat, I don't get a choice of browsers at the office).

>192 timspalding: Echoing Suncat, please may I join Board for Extreme Thing Advances? I use IE7 and occasionally Firefox.

(posting here so I don't bog down the new thread)

>192 timspalding: Ooh me too! I'd love to join this extreme board for extreme thing advances! I was wondering where I was supposed to ask, but I guess this will do as this thread has moved on to a better place.

Elvis has left the building. So has Tim.

No-one here any more
Like spring buds on a dead tree
collections unfurls elsewhere

Clouds of dust settle
While distant thunder retreats;
The herd has moved on.

If you want to help us out, however, and you're an IE6 user, consider switching to Firefox as soon as you can.

Some of us can't, period. Because it's not our decision to make.

...

I bet I'm not the only one in that boat. (#193)

You aren't. I am too. Almost certainly plenty more, too.

>218 AnnaClaire:

Go follow the link in 210. People are just being mischievous by continuing this thread...

Or this one if you want to discuss browser version issues.