Collections: Update: April 6, 2009

This is a post that Tim added to the other collections thread but that one is getting so long I figured that we needed a new place for it to go. Plus, he hijacked that thread. :)

Tim said:
--------------------
So, we had an all-LT meeting—Tim, Chris, Mike, Luke, ChrisC, Casey, Sonya, Abby and discussed:

1. Server issues and the move to a new colo
2. A widgets post mortem and how widgets ran over schedule, with an eye to..
3. Collections, and how to get them out.

I won't recount #1, but fun was had by all. We all agree that colo and collection issues are not related, but that we wouldn't release both on the same day. If we have that opportunity, great. Members will love us two days in a row.

On number two, we spent a lot of time talking about process and about the eternal problem of software development—why things run over schedule. As is often said, the easiest product is one made by one person. Multiple developers means communication, and communication problems.

We identified five communication problems, relevant to both widgets and collections:

1. Classic "feature creep"
2. Insufficient initial goal- and vision-setting.
3. Employee asychronicity (we're all in different places and work different hours)
4. Some code-documentation issues (worse for widgets)
5. Communication with members

On collections these applied, and we're solving them as follows:

1. Collections became a snowball, collecting all sorts of side features. For example, collections got stuck onto a catalog-navigation redo. As of last week, if not before, we set a firm line on not adding new features of any sort to collections. The pain point—the thing we all hate—is decided not to co-releasing the better "+ Add to my library" button onto collections. We are close, but we're not close enough, and getting that right is NOT worth delaying collections any longer."

The main problem with feature creep at LT isn't so much the creep, but not releasing things in pieces. In some sense LT is a GIANT feature creep—it started with just basic library cataloging; LT is the creep! But feature creep goes bad when the features stick together, and you can't get them out bit-by-bit. This makes members unhappy—and demoralizes programmers.

2. Bad initial goal-setting. Collections had a few stats and stops over the last few years. Except for the problems of #1, this hasn't been a problem this time around. If there was any doubt, I made sure people understood my "vision"—a vision of Hell, which is where we'll be if we don't release collections very soon. On widgets, this was totally my problem—I initially envisioned a fairly modest improvement, so Luke didn't rewrite the lowest level of code to cope with all the weight it was eventually to bear.

3. Employee asynchronicity. We've agreed to a daily 3pm meeting with all team members required and all LT employees encouraged to hear what's happened with collections in the last 24 hours.

4. Code documentation. Actually, not much a problem with collections.

5. Communication with members. As a general matter I underscored that the LT "way" was to talk a lot about everything, and that the programmer who made something bears primary responsibility for talking about it.

On collections, opinion here was mixed. I raised the idea that by not talking enough recently, members have become pissed off at us. John said that we stopped talking because we promised deadlines and missed them, and crying wolf (or maybe "crying ice-cream truck!") was worse than not talking.

Some results:

1. Mike has been tasked to help Chris with IE (mostly IE6*) testing, which is something Mike has gotten very good at, and which he can do without going too far into the code.
2. Luke has been tasked to take over everything he can from me—mostly admin scripting for feeds and for username changing and collection-moving. This will free me up to work with Chris the rest of the time.
3. Abby, Sonya et al. have agreed to follow the issue closely, and lend encouragement and pile shame on us as necessary.

Frankly, as I mentioned above, we were in some disagreement about whether we should talk about deadlines or not. So, rather than promise X, I'm going to simply let users into what we said.

Chris "wants" to release it this weekend. He's not sure—and I'm frankly skeptical—that we're that close. Chris' fallback was that, even if we couldn't release it, we could release it for beta testing. I'm not sure of that either, but I think he's right that if we could get it out there for members to hack away at—presumably just members of the Board for Extreme Thing Advances (membership automatic if you ask)—it might reduce some of the member pressure, and also get us good feedback.**

I asked what we could realistically promise. Chris said two weeks. John said don't promise anything—we're just setting ourselves up for failure. Rather, we should just release it some day and that's that.

So, that's what we said. My decision is that we're going to keep TALKING about this every day. And after each meeting I'm going to type up what we said and thought. Starting tomorrow, I'll also start making lists of what's "left," so members can assess progress better.

Thanks for your patience, your lack of patience, your support and your anger. As you can see, I've stopped short of any pledge, other than to keep you in boring and extreme contact with what's going on. I am hopeful we can do better than that, and if not, at least your anger will be better informed!

*We had a long tangent on when LT should drop IE6 support. The answer is: Not very soon. Facebook has dropped support, but our users are still 10-15% IE6. It's a bitch, and a serious drag on everything JavaScript-dependent, but IE6 is with us for a while longer. If you want to help us out, however, and you're an IE6 user, consider switching to Firefox as soon as you can.
**Luke raised the point that it's Easter. A bunch of us are going away or spending the day trying to convince our toddlers to find eggs.
-------------------

I then followed it up with:

Christopher said:
-----------------------------------
Actually what I said was:
I'm aiming to be finished by this weekend some time but that could get pushed back a few days. We like to launch new features on Mondays so that would push it to the following monday, hence "two weeks" from today. But I quickly followed that up with a comment that using the term "two weeks" will get nothing but anger and rolling eyes from our members. Understandably.

So, we are hoping for this weekend. We are aiming for next weekend. Easter will probably trump that and push it one MORE week, but sometimes those things happen. Hardware issues/rollover could push us a day or so one way or another.
--------------------------

Members followed with heaps of praise for the communication, though restricting releases to Mondays isn't the most popular idea.

And I'll just clarify that I wasn't suggesting that I think 2 weeks is an unrealistic deadline - just that nobody would believe us anyway. Then I took my bat and ball and went home.

I think we'd have had it available as a beta a long time ago if we were better set up to be able to do betas of this sort of feature. I've been using it on the dev server and it looks great to me.

1. Where do I sign up for the Board for Extreme Thing Advances?

We don't do all releases on Mondays but we try if it's close. It's for business related reasons.

Bravo on the communication, seriously. Continue with such posts, and you can feel free to take 6 months to get it out (but 3 weeks would be awesome).

I refuse to say "X weeks", where X is 1 less than 3. I don't want to cause anyone to involuntarily grab pitchforks and torches.

>6 conceptDawg:

Basically Monday is the busiest day, and sometimes we'll get a few days of coverage on something. Nothing ever makes it around a weekend.

Thank you. I apologize for being a bit rude in the other thread. I appreciate the pledge to communicate better and I promise not to bite your heads off again, so long as you keep that pledge, roll-out collections sometime before 2010, and never, EVER say two weeks again. Please.

Just remember that we wouldn't complain so vehemently if we didn't love LT and you guys so much; we'd just leave. So take the bad with the good and please give Chris a vacation when this is all over. I think he needs one.

My 2cents, for whatever it's worth, on message 192 in particular and the others:

When I start getting annoyed about collections and the timelines and promises and such, I try to step back and look at it a different way. The main reason we are all getting impatient is because of the simple fact that we are spoiled. Yes, spoiled. We get to talk to the admin, ask them questions, heck they even answer us most of the time! They actually include us in decisions, and that includes telling us about Collections progress and tentative release times.

Therefore, we expect it. We expect that we will get that treatment. When we don't, tempers flare. That is understandable. But I just keep going back to the fact that LT is so unique this way. Except for the small 2-digit-member-numbers forums I'm on, no other site I belong to has this level of communication with their users. None. So yeah, sometimes the people at LT slip up. Sometimes they don't deliver the features when promised. Sometimes they carry false promises. But I'd rather get a few false feature-dates mixed in with a TON of interaction, fun, and care, then absolutely nothing.

** In case you don't wanna read all that, my basic point is that I LOVE LT, and the collections crap doesn't bother me much because I care much more about admin-interaction as a whole then about a few missed deadlines.

And OH OH OH OH OH beta testing! Heck yes!

(I, for one, will be spending Easter online trying to forget the anniversary of my grandfather's death. So if you, by any chance, do something LT-related that day, I'll be here.)

198: Even though Facebook is more popular, its regular users don't necessarily like it. I think liking is important. If LT were like Facebook, we wouldn't get so angry because we wouldn't care so much.

YES! Exactly! (I hate to admit it, but...) I'm a member of Facebook, LiveJournal, MySpace, etc etc, but I've never cared about them the way that I do with LT.

....... Aaaand that was all in regards to the other thread. lol *talks too much!*

Well, to be honest I won't be the only one that needs a vacation. Collections haven't been a one-man job even though I've kind of become the face of Collections (for better or worse). The entire staff has given one thing or another to the feature: from feedback to initial ideas to actual development help to testing.

Okay, then, vacations for everybody!

Umm... after you work out most of the major bugs, right?

>11 conceptDawg:

Just in case I'm misinterpreted—as I apparently misspoke—I'm not blaming Chris either. Collections has a been a failure on a bunch of levels, many of them directly as well as ultimately mine. Then again, he'll be the one getting all the praise...

Thank you for the openness -- that's one of the best things about LibraryThing.

Personally, I don't really mind when collections come out, I'd rate LibraryThing as five-star is it is, and collections will mean that I need to extend the scale.

As for quoting "two weeks" -- I always just treat that particular estimate as a reference to The Money Pit. I'm not sure how applicable the rest of the plot of that movie is to the development of Collections, but "two weeks" sounds just right.

Here's a current shot of the catalog with a whole slew of new features being shown: collections, currently reading, new "fuzzy" date formats, new button class, dropdown menus, etc.

I'm finishing up the dates and currently reading editing in the next 24 hours. All direct collections manipulation is finished for the catalog. :) Maybe I'll make a little movie that shows collection adding/removing in the catalog....or maybe Tim will do it since he has a license for ScreenFlow and I don't.

14: The rest of the plot is eerily similar to the development of Collections. Especially the part about the floor falling in.

Thanks for the screen shot. I can see that LT will become more addictive!

cD, thanks for the screen shot, although it DID make me drool on my keyboard...

I want to join the Board for Extreme Thing Advances.

That aside, my craving for Collections has been akin to way I crave pizza after dieting for 6 months. I almost feel like I can't sit still waiting for it; the feature that will bring LT to perfection (stick a fork in it, it's done).

Despite my creepy feelings about Collections, I'm not mad at the staff at all. In fact, I've been surprised at the rudeness of some of the comments I've seen. I'm just as frustrated as the next guy when hearing the words "soon" and "in two weeks" but I don't let it make me forget my manners. I know these good people are working very hard to get it to us.

It's a rare thing for a website to communicate with the users the way LT does, and the Tim's commitment to ensuring that communication becomes frequent and even scheduled makes me giddy.

I'm sure many members will agree with me that as long we hear something, ANYTHING, about what's going on with the development of Collections, we'll be happy. Even if it's Chris saying he's bored with it and will get back to it the next day.

Thanks for the update guys, really appreciate it! Keep up the good work!

#13: Collections has a been a failure on a bunch of levels,

Think of it as a learning experience. It is only a failure if you:

1. Give up
2. It doesn't work and you abandon it

But everyone has too much time and emotion invested (users too) for it to be called a failure. Its a work in progress and the experience will serve you well in the future, so yeah you misspoke, failure is the wrong word.

Collections has a been a failure on a bunch of levels

From my perspective, I think you guys get way to caught up in trying to throw in too many features all at once. And these are features that folks, well-meaning as they are, dream-up in an effort to make sure the feature has meaning to them. The requests were seemingly endless - and it was just in the last month Chris stressed there were no further discussions on feature changes.

One of my absolute FAVORITE things in the last year was the "ten things I'd change about LibraryThing" contest. Because it was ten things in one post with a separate discussion thread - which meant that the thread was FILLED with individuals giving up nothing but ideas. It was awesome.

If we could do something similar in the future for major feature releases, I would love to see it. I mean a post of - the top 5 things you want from collections. I think it would give a better feel for what the users are really looking for without worrying about a few voices arguing over one or two fringe issues.

I would like to be a beta tester; I'm such an obsessed organizer it wouldn't bother me if my collections had to be redone, I'd actually enjoy that!

I like the idea of asking people to list suggestions more often.

And maybe when you're done with collections, you can finally implement the winning suggestions from the last contest ;)

Seriously guys, you're great! Thanks for not getting pissed at us getting pissed at you guys and rising to the challenge by giving us more info than we could expect elsewhere on t'interweb. It's what I love about LT.

Please can I beta test, pretty please, with sugar on ....

Let me be the first to vote for Chris' timeline functionality to find a home in LT. :) Yeah, I know, neither the time nor place for this, but....

I would also like to join the Board for Extreme Thing Advances .

So, I know some people will complain about nitpicking, but I'm going to say this anyway, since it's not something that requires extra programming either way:

Date stopped. Blech. I understand that you don't want to imply completion too strongly (despite the fact that this is what most people use it for), and "read" doesn't make sense anyway since it implies that the book was read in a single day. But couldn't you use a more neutral word like "ended", that doesn't imply so strongly "I gave up in the middle"? If I actually read a book to completion, I would never say "I stopped reading this book." That has a completely different meaning.

>27 _Zoe_:

How about "Started" "Finished" and "Gave up"?

k4k

>28 krazy4katz: I was trying to think of a solution that didn't require adding an extra field. But if it came down to it, I'd be happy to have Started, Finished, and Stopped.

I think Ended is somewhere in between Finished and Stopped, though, so I'm hoping it's possible to compromise.

I quite like "Gave Up". Although there are some books you intend to finish at some stage...

Yup, the "Stopped" bugged me too, if it's supposed to be a replacement for the current Date Read fields.

I think I'm mostly anxious for collections to be released not because I particularly care about collections per se, but because that'll free up the developers' time to work on other features (after a healthy vacation, of course!)

Chris: Are you inviting people to the BETA?

32
I was...

Yes, I was inviting them. Didn't even realize that Abby was lurking on this thread. Hello Abby!

* As for the "stopped' thing. It's a change. Who would have guessed that Zoe would have a problem with it?! :)
* At issue is the various ways that people want to use the Currently reading feature.
* We can't use "Gave Up" because, well, sometimes you actually DO finish a book and this date represents that.
* You can't use "Finished" for the contrary reason.
* "Ended" might work but it has a sense of finality about it that "Stopped" does not have.
* And the title has to be short or it forces the table column to be wider than it needs to be for most people.

>34 conceptDawg:

It might just be me, but "ended" sounds so clunky. I quite like the idea of having both an option for "finished" and "gave up" (because they convey very different ideas), but I really wouldn't know how feasible that is. Maybe I'm just being too fussy :)

Not feasible. Not going to happen.

>34 conceptDawg:
I lurk everywhere, don't you know? I only invited if they asked and they didn't already have an invitation from you.

She's here, she's there, she's everywhere...
So Beware!!

Anybody remember which '50s cartoon that comes from? (In male form)

How about ceased, closed, consummated, discharged, done with, resolved, sewn up, shut, terminated, through, tied up, wound up, or wrapped up?

Oh, and please add me to the extreme wanna be test'n beta list.

sometimes you actually DO finish a book and this date represents that

The thing is, it doesn't. "I stopped reading this book" means that I didn't finish it.

I don't see what's wrong with a sense of finality. "Stopped" also has a sense of finality, but finality without completion.

> 38

Don't recall that, but there's always:

They seek him here,
They seek him there,
Those Frenchies seek him everywhere.
Is he in Heaven, or is he in Hell?
That demn'ed elusive Pimpernel!

Yes, but this field is being used for BOTH sets of people. It's not your own special "Zoe" field.

I'm not saying that "stopped" is the right answer, just that it is closer than "finished" at this point.

But my point is that the word you've chosen only applies to one of the two sets of people who are supposed to be using the field. You've turned it into your own special "Chris" field, regardless of what the users are actually doing with it.

I have that ability after all. I am the one who created the feature. :) So pretty much the whole feature is the "Chris" field. Maybe I'll name it that. Yes. {town cryer voice}It shall be henceforth known as the "Chris" field!{/town cryer voice}

Honestly though. I'm not going to get into such a trivial argument here. That label can be changed in 2 seconds. It has no functional ramifications. We can argue about things like that well after the feature has shipped. And we're not going to satisfy all of the people all of the time, and certainly not you. :)

From my list above I sorta like CLOSED. It has a very noncommittal-ness about it. It could mean finished it could mean stopped...

I'd definetly prefer ended. Well ideally I'd have finished because that's what I do, but I accept there are people who stop reading a book. I'm not one of them though. Please can we have Ended instead of Stopped

I think it's fair to say from the various threads that have covered this that most people, most fo the time, read a book to the last page - they finish it. Stopped very much implies that you halt this process earlier than the last page. And I'm willing to bet if you go with stopped you'll get newbies asking where they enter the date that they finished a book.

Other than that I liked the teaser picture and am eagerly awaitng the release (along with everyone else)

Opened and closed are actually pretty quirky terms that I like. They're just different enough. Maybe.

I prefer finished as well (I am with reading fox that I will never "stop" reading a book - I must read all of it). But the point is, like Chris said, that if a change is going to be made let's just discuss that after Collections is released. I would not not not not not, repeat NOT, under ANY circumstance would want Collections to be delayed for this triviality.

I prefer "start and finish" over "open and close".

I open a book every time I read it, regardless of whether I am just starting it or have been chipping away at it for a month. And just because I close the cover doesn't mean I've finished it.

> 38 Pixie and Dixie Zorro spoof?

I definitely prefer finished over stopped. Finished can convey both completion and stopped. I'd also love to be part of the beta if possible.

On a different note-

Will that "Reading" check button visible in the preview image only be available in the catalog or will it also appear somewhere on the work/book/edit page?

I ask because I have found that my catalog is big enough that searching it is quite slow. So if I want to edit a single book's info (say it's completion date) I typically use "Site Search: Works" and from there go to the edit page.

It would be nice to be able to keep doing that with the new currently reading system.

I would like to Beta pretty please!

Also, I also really appreciate the time taken to listen to our concerns about communication and return such a thoughtful response. It does a lot to ease frustration! You guys are pretty awesome.

It will appear on the book/work pages also.

Yes, searching your catalog is a bit slow. I didn't realize it had gotten that slow for you. The new server architecture that is being deployed in the next week or two should help that, although I'm not sure to what extent.

I prefer "stopped" over "finished" as a pair with "started" ... but I like "OPENED" and "CLOSED" best of all. It has a bookish air. It is open to personal inference regarding completion, pausing, etc. Some people might use it to track short bursts of reading, others just the first time begun & the time when completed, etc. It sounds like a project or a file, which is sort of what a book is.

I must. stop. reading. this. thread.
Must stop. Stop replying.
Must work.

>50 kevmalone: Kev. Yup - you're right. Thanks.

cD: Go in peace, my son, and code away.

Another eager beta tester here: please sign me up for the board for
extreme thing advances. Thanks!

Stopped does seem a bit ambiguous, and I was going to suggest closed but I can see that that suffers the same way. My own suggestion would be 'shelved', but the books that I drift away from just end up piling on my bedside table, so I don't think that's much better, either.

Glacial attitudes
thaw, flooding the Extreme Board
with hopes of Springtime

The new convenant
has everyone looking up
Rainbow before Sun

>60 SilentInAWay: Gah - can we PLEASE not have this thread devolve into another Haiku fest?

I would be okay with with Opened and Closed, though I'm not sure it's intuitive enough for a new user.

I think this is a reasonable issue for users to talk about now. Tim was just saying yesterday that it's better to discuss changes beforehand. Ideally, we could all reach some consensus now about what would be best, and not have to waste time complaining about it later when we could be testing the new feature.

The other reasonable option, as far as I'm concerned, would be not to change the name of the field until such a time as the devs are ready to talk about it. The change from "read" to "stopped" is not an essential part of collections; collections could easily be released without changing the name. Then, after a couple of weeks, once the talk about the new feature had died down a bit, they could move on to figuring out what things should be called.

This reminds me too much of the tab removal. It's just a bad idea to introduce an unnecessary but potentially controversial change at the same time as a new feature, no matter how minor the change may seem.

Ultimately, I think the best solution would be to keep the current fields and introduce two new ones: stopped and resumed. Then everyone would be happy, and any stats gathered from the data would be more meaningful (e.g., which books take the longest and shortest time to read on average?).

And we're not going to satisfy all of the people all of the time, and certainly not you. :)

But you can try :)

>38 MerryMary:

Tapeworm Man?

I think the "finished" field renaming is a little bizarre. If you do not finish the book then you don't need to enter a date. If you are really planning on not starting the book up again, then you are essentially "finished" with it even if you haven't read every page. If you are planning on picking it up again then in my mind you are still reading it. I think "finished" works just as well for works that you read every page of as for books that you are no longer interested in reading.

I do like "opened" and "closed" thought as alternatives. They are endearing.

Perhaps the significant events are not open/closed or started/stopped, but off {the shelf}/on {the shelf} or equivalent. The date an event 'stops' is often elusive (i.e., not known until the event fails to resume, which is a span rather than a moment). But the date a book is put away is always a moment.

My unfinished books do tend to pile up and I'm always intending to pick them up and read some more -- until the day (usually months later) that I remove the bookmark and either return them to the public library or put them back on my own shelves. So 'finished with' is often a fuzzy concept for me. But the date reshelved isn't.

Just a thought regarding the 'date of choosing another thing to do rather than read the current book for whatever reason'....

Add a field. You have Start-Date and End-Date. Call the new one End-Reason. Make it a drop-down menu containing reasons why the reader chose to discontinue the book as his/her current read. The only things I haven't seen mentioned so far are: Lost in Natural or Man-Made Disaster, Taken by the Authorities as Evidence, Theft, and Abducted by Aliens.

An enhancement for later would be to make End-Reason a selectable/sortable data point, so set it up as an index now.

Or not. To me, it makes no difference, as the reader can always explain why in the Comments section of the catalog entry.

I would like to join B.E.T.A. please, better known as Board for Extreme Thing Advances.

Nope. Not adding fields at this point. The currently reading functionality was hashed out fairly completely a few weeks back and this is what the majority of users came up with. It stays for now. We'll revisit once people get a chance to play with it.

As for getting feedback beforehand. That's true when we're talking about structural changes to the data. This is just a labeling issue. It can be changed at any time in 2 seconds. Not something to worry about until after we finish the feature.

I post screenshots of IN DEVELOPMENT features because I think you will enjoy them. But be mindful of the fact that labels and layout change about a thousand times during development. It's part of the hashing out process. I'll put something there and use it for a day to see how it works. So don't take screenshots as final versions.

Well, the tabs could also be changed at any time in two seconds, and look what happened with that. Twice.

But sure, we can save this discussion for later.

I'd love to joing BETA.

(Now, Chris, get back to work! :)

oooh, I love the Abducted by Aliens as a drop down, but is that the book or the user, or both :)

72: obviously the book, unless the aliens provide internet access... though come to think of it, that could explain a lot of things! ;-)

Regarding the Started & Stopped columns, will it be possible to put in approximate, sortable dates, like "1989" or "2008-02"? Or is it just full date vs. non-sortable text?

cD had somewhere earlier, that they have added partial dates for this feature.

>74 The_Kat_Cache: Yes, see the screen shot in message 15.

Yep. Fuzzy dates and pure-text are acceptable in the date fields.

>76 Talbin: Ahem. I was looking at the screen shot. There's only full dates and text. No partial dates, which is why I asked the question.

Please add me as a beta tester. I promise I will not complain if my catalogs get messed up :-)

You can add both of my accounts...this one "tarpfarmer" and "keepers"

Thanks

Finals week and graduation are approaching. Please DO NOT add me to the BETA group. Even if I ask in a moment of weakness. Seriously. Don't. ;-)

>79 The_Kat_Cache: - Sorry, I misunderstood your comment.

I'm a beta wannabe!

1. I just signed in after 24 hours not watching this thread. 82 messages? Holy $!@#$.

2. consummated Can we add that to Facebook?

3. I favor begin / end. It sounds like a field label, not a statement on what actually happened, the way "started" and "finished" do. "Start/end" is a vessel you can fill with your own meaning. "Started/Finished/Ended" fill the vessel in.

4. I would be okay with with Opened and Closed, though I'm not sure it's intuitive enough for a new user. It's not. It's weird.

UPDATE ON PROGRESS

Since last night, I got a number of buttons/icons working, first on the work pages and next on the catalog.

Chris hammered out the currently-reading issues. The solutions are many and elegant.

We talked today at 3pm to discuss them and other stuff. We really got into the weeds on currently reading. Blech.

1. It's hard for me to describe what we decided. It had something to do with how to express currrently-reading and collections, both as icons and as columns. But the issues are so complex and interlocked that it just can't be discussed without being "there." And Luke, who was there, basically gave up, sat down and spaced out on Twitter, or something.

2. Basically, we decided that we would not use the "simplest" currently reading checkbox. The simplest way of doing it would be to show a simple checkbox, as well as an "advanced" divet. When the simple box was checked, it would fill in currently-reading, and automatically enter today's date without informing you that's what it was doing. It was simple. I think it would make some users happy. And would probably send 5% of users into orbit.

Instead, we are making the "advanced" mode the only way currently-reading will work. When you click it, it will be entering today's date, but it will SHOW you what it's doing on a popup, so you will be able to change or cancel what you're doing. That will send 2% of users into orbit too, I think. But we'll send up a supply ship, with sandwiches and juice.

3. I think the catalog is looking like this. Only one little toolbar area is "bright" at a time—the one you're on. Member and review counts will be a column you can have or omit.

84: Thanks for the update, Tim!

Fantastic update again!

Begin/End is good.

It's also good that you're not going to add date date without showing anyone. But will it be possible to use Currently Reading without dates (i.e., to disable the dates or at least to delete them individually)? Not something I personally care about, for the record--but I know some people do.

Also, will it be possible to have a book with a start date but no end date that's not in the CR collection?

I'm relieved to hear that it will still be possible to have a column with member and review counts. It would be even better if the column you're showing here were optional, and we could instead choose a column that combined all the information. In the current picture the icon box has wasted vertical space, and I'd like to use that before adding an extra column.

84: "That will send 2% of users into orbit too, I think. But we'll send up a supply ship, with sandwiches and juice."

I'm not inclined to be upset about that function but can I go into orbit anyway? Always wanted to be an astronaut. Sandwiches, juice, and a view from space sounds pretty nice. Peaceful. Well maybe not if everybody else there is miffed about something.
Seriously all this info about what is happening on your end is really interesting and much appreciated. Thank you for letting everybody in on some of the behind the curtain stuff.

Dare I ask,

besides the catalog, will the currently reading status show up on your home page and profile with something nice like the new widgets or a separate but similar box to the Most Recent Activity ? Or is this something you will work on once its been released ?

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain - for I am the Great and Powerful Oz.

Even if it took me a whole day to find this successor thread, may I please join the Board for Extreme Thing Advances?

I like the sound of this 'advanced' mode. Most of the time I'll start reading a book at night and update it the next day, so yeah. Good decision! Love the communication.

I'm also interested in what FicusFan is asking.

And could I please join the Board for Extreme Thing Advances?

>38 MerryMary: They're far, they're near, they're gone, they're here.
They're quick and slick and insincere
Beware Beware Beware Beware Beware...

>68 MikeBriggs: Re: B.E.T.A. better known as Board for Extreme Thing Advances.

How pathetic is it that I didn't realize what Board for Extreme Thing Advances stood for until that post?

Me either. Some things are so close we overlook them. My mom would say, "If it was a snake it'd bite you." (Another entry for the Favorite Expressions thread.)

92/93: Diagon Alley, anyone?

Dear Tim & Co.

I am sure it will be wonderful and I will be happy with however you decide to do the dates. My main interest in collections is to be able to put my wish list here without "contaminating" my true library.

I appreciate all your efforts and look forward to the results.

k4k

PS. I am willing to wait until AFTER beta testing. As someone who can't walk and chew gum at the same time in the computer world, 'tis the better strategy.

I surprised that nobody is commenting on the implications of the graphic in 84. Basically, the tools will be dimmed if you're not on the row, and bright if you are. I think the effect is nice, but there has previously been a lot of opposition to having this "move."

Are you asking us to complain, now? ;)

I like the dimming!

I feel like I'd have to see it in the catalogue to really get a sense of how it looks. And sometimes I just try not to complain about everything.

Heh. I'll work on it and maybe it can release this week, sans collections.

T

>92 Morphidae: How pathetic is it that I didn't realize what Board for Extreme Thing Advances stood for until that post?

Hey, I work here and I'd never figured it out either :)

How about ceased, closed, consummated, discharged, done with, resolved, sewn up, shut, terminated, through, tied up, wound up, or wrapped up?

"Terminated" has a certain ring to it.

Yeah, the dimming looks nice. So if we're 'on' the row does that mean when we're hovering over it?

I just read post 47. Opened and Closed just seem...right.

#96

What do you mean by 'move' ? It is a static picture so its hard to imagine 'movement'. As long as it doesn't jump like the tag page, I think I am fine with it.

I'm surprised someone hasn't said, "But just because you finish a book doesn't mean you're never going to re-read it." I think there should be another field, "Date Intend to Re-read."

Just kidding, conceptDawg. Hey, put that knife down. (Backs away...)

I DEMAND the following new fields:

- intended position within TBR list
- date on which book was bumped by something more readable but less worthy (multi-value)
- bookmark type (piece of string, scrap of paper, old receipt, closest item of clean cutlery, business card, actual bookmark)

Hey, I like bookmark type! I never could keep track of them. In fact, why not start a whole new BookmarkThing site? Fully integrated with LibraryThing, of course.

>107 felius:,
Hmm, well I would like to see how many books I consider to be 'one of the next few books I'm planning to read...

> 107

Bookmark type must include transit system transfers. I have found any number of them tucked inside Spousal Unit's books. They are invaluable for tracking approximate date read and city of residence at the time book was read.

How you could overlook such valuable data is beyond me.

> 104 Collectorator: "If we cared about new users, we'd have taken down the big green plus long ago."

I've never been a fan of "LOL," but that one did make me laugh out loud. Thank you.

And thanks to Tim & Co. for starting daily meetings and giving us such good info. It makes the wait easier to handle. :-)

#1 - I wanna be a BETA member!
(I thought I had asked before - but I could be wrong).

#2 - just wanted to add that I (and probably one or two other people on the planet) don't care what you call the start/end date fields - call 'em alpha and omega for all of me - one of the very few features on LT I don't use. (When I am on a streak I have been known to re-read 2-4 books in a single day - that's too much back and forth to the computer for me - and I log on to LT at least twice a day.)

#3 - I'm with >87 Aerulan: - can I go into orbit anyway? You can make a reservation in my name here:
http://www.virgingalactic.com/htmlsite/index.php?language=english

(Seriously though - I'll echo the others, if we didn't love LT so much we wouldn't be so rabid about our favorite features. Thanks guys!)

I do use the fields and I also don't care what you call them. I know one is the start and one is the end. Call them Frank and Judy for all I care.

I would definitely like to join the BETA!

I would love to join the BETA group please!

I'd like the Bookmark type to include Checks From My Mother I Forgot to Cash. I'm going through my shelves these days, and found a couple.

Piece of clean cutlery? Has anyone seen my desk?

Related to 102, what does the user do to light the menu for a book, is it a single click in any field to activate? That's what seems intuitive to me since most (all?) of the data entry fields require a double-click... But I've also come to naturally do things that made no sense to me at first because LibraryThing made them so. What can I say, I'm a willing sheep :)

If we had a field for bookmark type, maybe I could actually FIND my bookmark pens (those were good quotes, dammit...), my *real* bookmarks, and the stack of BookMooch cards I really did intend to include with mailed books instead of using to indicate places where I annotated books for school...

http://www.librarything.com/pics/blog/sharedcolumn.png

Here's the catalog, with the "toolpad" but also with the "shared" column.

Before this, as you probably know, the total members and total reviews was snuck in under the social and detail icons. A LOT of users, however, didn't understand what was going on. I think the information is valuable enough to present more clearly.

What do people think? We saved some room by making the icons smaller, but this loses it again, for sure. Conceivably this column could be removed, but it would certainly be the default.

I am also playing around with the tool-pad being removable, or at least being able to put it on the left.

This is a classic issue we didn't need to solve with collections, but we are so damn far along—and going back would take such effort to square with collections—that it's worth finishing.

what does the user do to light the menu for a book

Just to be "in" that row—your mouse over it.

This looks great!

Can the social columns be removed optionally? (I use my different views for different things and flexibility is always good)

If not - no problem.

Bring it on.

>119 timspalding: I'm personally not interested enough in the info in the shared column to show it in my library view, so I'm hoping displaying it is optional. (Even now, if I want that particular information, I generally go to the work's main page.)

I like the conceivability of the shared column being removable :)

I'm half-asleep right now, but just wanna say how awesome the screenshots look. I definitely like the dimmed tools part, and would LOVE for the shared column to be removeable.

Are those shared numbers links though? Because I like them and use them frequently as it currently is. Or are the links now one of the odd icons on the right which aren't immidiately obvious as to their function.

Please if you do hovertext make it last for more than a few seconds. Unlike Xkcd for example where I spend minutes trying to read the second sentance.

I love the toolpad! All the icons look amazing: functional and easy to understand!

I think the information is valuable enough to present more clearly.

So... painfully... inefficient. I understand about making it comprehensible to new users, but can't we have an advanced column option too (say, a column that consists only of the current shared icon and numbers)? I really like the shared information, but I don't think I could justify giving it so much screen space. And we've lost the information about whether we've written a review ourselves.

>126 _Zoe_:
Let us never forget that, historically, words were, indeed, the original icons.

Yes, but there are more words than necessary, and the information conveyed by the icon itself has just been eliminated.

>128 _Zoe_:
Two words are used to express two ideas. That's 1:1.

Sorta kinda maybe not really related:
I'd love to be able to sort on number of reviews.

(Things are looking great, btw.)

Oh, what _Zoe_ said in 126. I really love the current icon...ography? for shared/reviews, especially in the compact way it conveys the information. I don't use it constantly, but if it's going to change visually, I'd like it to still do what it did functionally. (I've always found it brilliantly intuitive; I'm surprised to hear a lot of people find it confusing.) Other than that, the screenshots look rad, and I'm excited to see the new look go live.

>129 messpots: Okay, so you can say that numbers aren't words. But what point are you trying to make here, other than arguing semantics? Less information is being conveyed in considerably more space. The historical background is all well and good, but does that mean we should abandon this website and go back to index cards?

I'm with Zoe in #126 - I like having that info, but not enough to justify giving it that much width - plus the loss of the quick way of identifying my own reviews is a pain.

What about keeping the current icon/numbers system, but changing the column header to "Members"? That seems (to me) more intuitive than "Shared" or "Social".

>126 _Zoe_:

I agree completely. I definitely want to display the social information but I don't want to eat up more column width. I'll already be adding a new column to most views to handle collections.

You also display some of the most popular books so the large numbers make the space taken by the text seem less wasteful. It will look sillier for all of those works with 11 members and 0 reviews.

Is the current system really that unintuitive? I think I figured it out almost instantly back in the day. The number of users is fairly clear. The review information is less obvious but it only takes a few experimental clicks to figure it out.

I would at least like the option to hide the words in the shared column, although I would probably prefer to find some way to shove the numbers into the toolpad.

rebeccanyc, are you currently using all the extra columns we were given a while back in all of your views?

>126 _Zoe_: 134 135
If you restore the icon, then you'll have a column of icons next to a column of icons. Confusing: and even more so because the respective icons will be behaving differently. When users protested against having the dynamic icon box to the left, and Tim relented, he no doubt noticed the double-icon-column problem and effected this change.

I'd like to join BETA as well, if it hasn't exploded from the sudden influx of members.

126,132,134,135: Agree. I like the shared / reviews info, succinctly presented with an icon -- probably enough that I'd dedicate a column, but I'd be annoyed. It's not a major learning curve to figure out what the icon and numbers mean.

Otherwise... Really appreciate the updates from Tim & cD. The wait for collections is much more tolerable with information and glimpses of progress.

#136, Oooh! hailelib -- how did I miss those??? Thanks for letting me know what I should have learned earlier.

Now that I know, this, I'm going to delete my earlier post.

I must be in the minority as a member who does use the shared column. I like to keep my display ordered by the number of shared books.

I like the display as is. I don't care whether or not the icons are always present or have the ability to be hidden.

I love the idea to highlight the current line.

It looks great to me as is, Tim!

> 140, you're welcome.

>119 timspalding: I think it looks cleaner. But does anything change if I've done a review for the book?

I much prefer the new model. (Although I would call "shared" "social data" or "social" instead, because reviews are not per se shared.) The previous column was just a hodgepodge of random data, which was irritating to me. A hodgepodge is fine if I get to decide what's in the hodgepodge. But otherwise it's confusing.

As for all the concern about screen width -- that concern is handled by the fact that you can *turn* *the* *column* *off*. Yes, there are always more and more compressed and dense ways one could display information. We could simply have icons for everything and let it all be mouseovers. But I think the new method strikes a very good balance between modularity and logical organization, readability, and user options (turn-off-abiity).

I encourage some notation if one has written one's own review of the book. And, if one is looking at someone else's library, a checkmark if you own the book. Maybe a green dot by each of the items (copies, reviews) if you have.

I like the icon pad, and if it's a mouseover that's fine. I'm curious if the mouseover applies just if you mouseover the icon pad? Or if you mouseover anything in that row?

I wouldn't mind having the tiny head icon in the icon pad, with a direct link to "social info" about the book or whatever. I realize that screws up the evenness of the 6-icon arrangement. Perhaps in future the icon pad can be a drag-and-drop affair and we can pick and choose our own hodgepodge of icons.

Anyway, BRAVO.

(also, i'm all in favor of rolling Collections out the door as soon as possible, and letting us try to break it. that'll happen anyway, so why delay? we would expect you to continue tweaking it for a while.)

>144 lquilter: "As for all the concern about screen width -- that concern is handled by the fact that you can *turn* *the* *column* *off*."

Are you sure about that?

Tim said in #119, "Conceivably this column could be removed, but it would certainly be the default."

To me, that "conceivably" means that the column may not be able to be turned off.

I'm one of those who doesn't understand what is so confusing about the current social data field. Does this new column change to anything when you review it?

However, I'm more concerned with whether or not I can turn off that far right column, with all the 'edit' icons in it. As I said in the other thread, I don't use it for anything, except the shared data icon, and since they're going to be separate now...

144: But some of us want to see the information, in its current succinct form.

Not an earth shattering issue. I too want collections ASAP. However much is modified before the fact based on the feedback of folks paying attention, there is bound to be a whole new array of complaints and confusions once collections are a visible tangible reality.

I agree that the real estate taken up by the new "social" column is MUCH too large. Which means I'd probably have it turned off most of the time, which is a shame, since it's useful for spotting combination problems.

>119 timspalding:

what does the user do to light the menu for a book

Just to be "in" that row—your mouse over it.

And if I click on an unlighted icon, will it still work? I use a touchscreen slate, so I'm never going to be hovering.

Not a fan, sorry. I don't even particularly care for the new "toolbox", since it's different design makes it feel completely separate from the catalog records. Maybe that's the point, but it's still jarring.

I'm also highly concerned about "horizontal real estate", especially for those (like myself) who currently appreciate and make use of the current social/tools column. That single column will now be replaced with two columns in addition to the brand-new Collections column? Gah.

So... painfully... inefficient. I understand about making it comprehensible to new users, but can't we have an advanced column option too (say, a column that consists only of the current shared icon and numbers)? I really like the shared information, but I don't think I could justify giving it so much screen space. And we've lost the information about whether we've written a review ourselves.

I'm thinking through the best way of doing it. One way would be to have various types for that column—a version with M: and R:, for example. Or it could have icons, with numbers by them. Overall, however, I think we've saved space.

Right now, they are set up as "no-wrap," so that "Members: 41,000" will always be one line. I could make it wrap, if necessary. That would produce a much thinner column, if you are packing.

I'll keep thinking about it.

And we've lost the information about whether we've written a review ourselves.

No. I'm going to change the color of the review icon for that.

What about keeping the current icon/numbers system, but changing the column header to "Members"? That seems (to me) more intuitive than "Shared" or "Social".

Yeah.

Not an earth shattering issue. I too want collections ASAP. However much is modified before the fact based on the feedback of folks paying attention, there is bound to be a whole new array of complaints and confusions once collections are a visible tangible reality.

Yeah. This is, as I've said above, a problem where collections got "stuck" onto another change--changing the catalog. At this point, they can't be unstuck easily--or rather, we can release the new catalog without collections, but not the latter. So I'm pushing on it as hard as I can.

brand-new Collections column

We'll see, but I don't expect users to use the collections collumn so much. We'll see, I suppose. But the point of collections is to put it somewhere, not to view it as "data" so much. Hard to explain, and I need another Diet Coke.

Just wondering, will the columns auto size themselves with the data there or will we be able to size them ourselves manually to fit data to our own screens as we want?

One way would be to have various types for that column—a version with M: and R:, for example.

Even better would be a version with just the numbers, like we have now.

Best would be if we could optionally display those numbers below the six icons, where there's a bit of empty space.

I've not noticed it (or perhaps I'm just tired) but it doesn't seem that anyone has mentioned that they are concerned about the possible increase in vertical space consumed by the toolbox. I rarely use a cover view, and the consequent whitespace caused by the members/review count (which I really like as just numbers) below the person(s) icon has always been a source of annoyance. This looks to be increased with the new layout. My aim is to see a lot more books on the same screen.

154> Yes that's sort of where I was going with the "can this be optional?" comment.

Though it may not look like it, the new boxes take up less vertical space than the previous version.

154>

I'm confused. When you say "cover view" do you mean "catalog view with a cover column"? In cover view proper (I just checked, because I never use it either) there isn't a "member/review" count.

>157 lorax: Having a cover column would cause an increase in vertical space, so I assume that's what Noisy meant. (though who cares about the vertical space increase when it looks so good with the covers :D)

157>

Right, I know, and I do have a cover column in most of my styles -- but there's something totally separate called a "cover view", too (just covers, no actual information), which is why I was confused.

I know, me too, I had to reread the paragraph to figure out what he/she meant.

160>

I have this bad habit of assuming people mean exactly what they say. :)

>133 _Zoe_:
The historical background is all well and good, but does that mean we should abandon this website and go back to index cards?

No way! LibraryThing was so slow back in the 1970s, when it was a mail-in service. I would hate to go back to those days.

The talk threads took FOREVER to load.

Today's update

1. Chris is working on finishing up the work page by tomorrow's meeting. It's another candidate for being released pre-collections.
2. Tim is is in deep, existential despair about how to best arrange the catalog icons while preserving the members/reviews counts. He spent a few hours on it himself, then with Chris, Luke and Mike and finally ended things by lying in bed. Half-asleep he concocted the perfect solution and so fell asleep happily. Upon waking he realized it was incredibly stupid.

Funny how often that happens - but at least you got a worry-free night's sleep! :-)

>164 timspalding: #2 (and all of the above, and all of the rest of the saga)

There is a novel in this, I'm sure of it. Probably a trilogy. Then the movie rights, the Broadway play, the musical....

Wasn't even a night's sleep. I was seriously so unhappy with the situation I lay down during the day. That's pretty uncommon for me.

It's really a nasty UI problem.

>166 justjim:... The Tim Spalding lunchbox, the Tim Spalding Happy Meal Action Figure with (with 6 points of articulation!), the Tim Spalding guest voice spot on The Simpsons...

...Tim Spalding's face on city buses, Tim's fragrance (Essence of Coding), the Tim Spalding home version...

167> At least it's not a UTI problem. See, everything has an upside!

If only cranberry juice could solve our UI problems.

> 38


Anybody remember which '50s cartoon that comes from? (In male form)

OK, without scrolling down any further than your message to see if anyone else has gotten it, it's that dang pesky french mouse!

Savoir Faire is everywhere! :-)

>151 timspalding: One way would be to have various types for that column—a version with M: and R:, for example.

I'd personally still find the letters distracting. Besides, allocating a column just for M: and R: seems a gargantuan waste of space, and would look rather ridiculous, I imagine.

>153 _Zoe_: Best would be if we could optionally display those numbers below the six icons, where there's a bit of empty space.

Agreed! I don't suppose that's feasible? To have the option to display the numbers below the toolpad.

Otherwise, I like the look of the toolpad, collections looks really promising... and I'd like to join the BETA. :)

See http://www.librarything.com/topic/62128

What about the Tim Spalding Flamethrower? The kids love that one.

>153 _Zoe_:, 174 Best would be if we could optionally display those numbers below the six icons, where there's a bit of empty space.

Agreed! I don't suppose that's feasible? To have the option to display the numbers below the toolpad.

There's only a lot of space because the screenshots are presumably from a view that includes covers. In a view without covers, numbers below would probably waste additional space. A separate column is probably best.

Comment on screenshots over there over there, not here.

Latest update thread: http://www.librarything.com/topic/62189

Could I please be added to the B.E.T.A. group?