Book trash

As much as I dislike books like Twilight and Harry Potter, I respect that they keep the populated youth literate. Does anyone feel like this?

I don't know much about HP, and in general I've got nothing against reading trash for pleasure but Twilight is so badly written with a ton of ridiculous plot holes and plot devices, that I don't really see how it can benefit anyone (except to entertain some. I found it really, really boring). Reading the posts/blogs of most Twilight fans suggests it's doing absolutely nothing for their literacy. At the very least I hope fans will realise how pleasurable reading can be and begin reading regularly (if they don't already). And hopefully they'll find something of better quality and realise what trash Twilight is.

However, Twilight has such disturbing, if not repulsive ideas about love, sex and relationships, that if I had a young daughter or son I really wouldn't feel comfortable about them reading it, even if it encouraged them to read further. There are so many other books that are fun to read and encourage reading.

I probably wouldn't go so far as to say it's better to read nothing at all than to read Twilight, but I'd have to pause and consider it.

I think Harry Potter is very good indeed (see my username *wink wink*) and I think it is great that Harry Potter has opened up the world of reading to many people that wouldn't have read beforehand.

However, Twilight is pretty bad. The first two books are quite good but they go downhill from there. I am no expert either but the actual content of the Twilight Saga is pretty bad. At points I found myself shocked that she had managed to get her books published.

Yes, I feel like this to a degree. I try not to be chauvinist when it comes to books though, as any reading is better than no reading. I will have no problem whatsoever with my own young daughters reading Harry Potter when they get older, for example. Indeed, I may even introduce them to the books.

By most accounts, the HP books are not that bad in any case. Not my cup of tea, but they do introduce pretty important concepts (good vs evil, loyalty, friendship, trust etc) from what I've heard.

Twilight on the other hand... meh.

Choose your reading materials wisely to read or your time was not fully utilised, and wasted your hard-earned salary or saving to the pocket of a "thrashy" writer.
Most novels of today are "medicore" with simple plots or whether the stories are being plaglarized. Some novels are "utterly rubbish".The stories of Harry Potter and friends, and the Twilight's series are actually making fun of "witches", "wizardlry","black magic", "vampires" . I personally feel the writers of today must changed the writing's style in themes for today's generation of "new age" young readers. Classics from the earlier generations do not carry much appeal and faithful followings from our younger readers. Do young children or your daughters or sons enjoyed reading Charles Dickens's or Jane Austen's novels ? Maybe, a small percentage of some children loved these classics.
Classics are considered as " Dead Authors Books" entirely forgotten. The copyright for these books are over.You can even purchased a classics book at a very nominal right or even read a digitalized full text in the Internet. It is sad that the classics are no longer popular these days, but forced to read them for your English Literature's lessons in the schools.

I always liked classics. My Mum was very active in trying to get me to read so, thanks to her, I grew up reading all kinds of things. I have read the whole HP set, the twilight saga and I have read loads and loads of classics.

I hope that the classics are not dying out.

A lot of the classics are being made into films, TV series at the moment. I am not complaining but I like to read the books first and then watch the films. I hope other people do that too.

I'm not sure it counts if all you read is the Twilight series - eight times in a row. Or Harry Potter on an endless cycle. I teach high school and I see this quite a bit. I have attempted to suggest something else, but, for the most part, they just want to reread the same story.

I admit that I have never read a Twilight book before nor am I curious to start one, but I think the book is heavily candy coated with its ho hum literature meanings.

One person's trash is another person's treasure, as they say. Not that I don't have my own opinions... I enjoy reading trash every now and then. It makes me feel so virtuous the rest of the time.

I read all the Harry Potter novels and enjoyed them all. While they aren't deathless literature, they are very entertaining.

I'll give Twilight a miss.

Haven't read Twilight, but I did read all of Potter and Pullman's His Dark Materials which was truly worth a folio rendition. My theory is, if it gets kids reading, it's worth it.

I haven't read any of "Twilight" either - and I probably won't. But I have read the Harry Potter series, and though it's obviously not the greatest literature ever I wouldn't call it trash either.

Anyway, agreeing with the above. Anything that gets kids reading in such numbers is to be applauded.

Tomwrites said: My theory is, if it gets kids reading, it's worth it.

Exactly!

I know friends who started with comics and graduated into "graphic novels" and then into (what I suppose I rather condescendingly call) real books.

I know several people who exclaim (sometimes proudly!) that Harry Potter is the only book(s) they've read. But it usually starts a habit.

The wonder of the human imagination, sparked by a book that grips, is a subtle but compelling and addictive drug... :)

I know somebody that reads the HP books over and over again in one big loop. I couldn't do that. I only do that with one book - I read The Great Gatsby once a year.

interesting, and why do you do that?

you never know... maybe this time it will have a happy ending.

I once accused my younger daughter of reading Pride and Prejudice yet again to see if Elizabeth would refuse Mr. Darcy this time.

>2 inkspot: I'll go that far: If it was a choice between my kids reading Twilight or reading nothing, they're better off with nothing. There are many other more valuable things they could be doing, and as much as I love reading as a leisure activity, I don't think reading is inherently better than, say, hiking or playing a board game or watching a really well-made movie.

"Twilight: it's better for your kids than smoking crack."

It gets annoying when teenaged girls boast about their academic reading skills, when they've only read Twilight.

>15 MrAndrew: MrAndrew said: you never know... maybe this time it will have a happy ending.

You owe me a new keyboard. I just spluttered coffee all over it... :)

>19 Excelsior1: Excelsior1, I know what you mean, but it's better than teenaged girls boasting about how many Paris Hilton home videos they've watched...

Never mind I just read this twilight forum here and am convinced theres no literature gain in reading those books.

http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.php?topic=63754

Have you noticed how most Twilight fan threads only have a few brief posts gushing over Twilight before they start talking about school or their friends?

oh pshaw. Lots of groups/threads get sidetracked.

If you skim through the thread posted in #22 above, you'll see that it gets back to talking about books in an intelligent way on a regular basis. I give you:

http://www.librarything.com/topic/63754#1267505

http://www.librarything.com/topic/63754#1437062

(just ignore post #122 on that thread, that proves nothing.)

>14 Excelsior1: are you referring to me? If so, I just read it now for the pleasure of how well it is written.

> 15 haha you can only hope :)

I do not like Twilight as a book- I've read the first one (just because I started it and hate to leave books unfinished) but never even thought of getting the others. So I know that it is not my cup of tea and I can probably recommend a lot of better books to anyone that can explain me what they like in Twilight. And I read and liked Harry Potter (all of them) - even if they had their problems, the books were enjoyable enough.

With this being said - I actually like the Twilight phenomenon. It got people back to reading; it got teenagers out of the computer games/girly doing-nothings and made them read - not the Cliff Notes (or whatever the alternative is here these days) of the novels that they must read but an actual full novel. And one in a 100 (or even more) of these kids are asking for similar books and grow up to the good books. Technically a good number of these teenagers already had read at least 7 books (the Harry Potters), now 4 more (and at least here most of the people reading both series are also reading the Inheritance Cycle)... well - it is more than the number of books most of my classmates had read when I was finishing school in the late 90s. Do I prefer them to read something that at least does not have obvious plot holes? Yes, but it won't happen.

So I am happy when ANY book becomes popular amongst the children and the teenagers - as long as they read something, there is a chance to convince them to read something else after this. At least a better chance than convincing someone that thinks that books are for losers.

PS: And on a very side note: I occasionally reread books simply because they are my comfort reading or because I need something that I know I love after a book that did not really work for me. But reading a series again and again makes no sense to me...

"Never mind I just read this twilight forum here and am convinced theres no literature gain in reading those books."

Mmm I think the issue is just that us people who grow up with the internet feel they can be informal in chat forums. Chatspeak is socially (except here on LT) accepted informal chat when talking with your friends online, and few people edit before posting unless its being handed in somewhere for a 'real' purpose. Even I find myself having to capitalize my I's here retroactively because I'm not used to it. (Word does it for you for anything formal, and nothing else requires it :P). Just because you don't use formal speech doesn't mean you can't... Just like people don't speak the way they write an essay :) That sort of writing on LT just shows the age that the book appeals to, not the literary merit in reading the book. I'd bet if you got a bunch of Twilight readers to read The Catcher In The Rye they'd chat about it in the same format.

So your saying the teenaged mind is too impressionable.

28: Me? I'm not actually saying anything of the sort...? I meant that no matter what people are reading, they will communicate about it in the way that feels natural unless there is a reason not to. For some people this is chatspeak, and says nothing about the literary quality of what they are discussing.

29: They aren't really discussing anything though. It's just a lot of gushing about how awesome the series is, and even that isn't interesting enough to sustain itself for long.

And if they had anything to discuss, I doubt they'd do it in chat-speak. It's just so inarticulate. There's only a limited number or words you can use. If you turned most of the posts here into text-speak they'd be either incomprehensible or simplified to pointlessness.

It doesn't follow from this that the Twilight fans couldn't express themselves better if they wanted to, but I would think that the more literate you are, the more you'd want to communicate clearly, whether formally or informally. With the exception of routine replies and greetings, it's really hard to be articulate in chatspeak.

I do love a challenge.

"Thy arnt really dscssng anythng though. Its jst a lt of gshng about hw awsm th sries is and evn tht isnt intrstng enough 2 sstain itslf fr lng.

nd if thy hd anythng 2 dscss i doubt thyd do it in cht-speak. Its jst so inrtclt. Thrs only a lmtd nmbr r wrds u cn us. If u trnd mst of th psts hr int txt-speak thyd be eithr incmprhnsbl r smplfied 2 pntlssnss.

t dsnt fllw frm ths tht th twlght fns couldnt exprss thmslvs bttr if thy wntd 2 bt i would thnk tht th mr ltrt u r th mr youd wnt 2 cmmnct clearly whthr frmlly r infrmlly. Wth th excptn of routn rplies and greetngs its really hrd 2 be artclt in chtspeak."

Perfectly articulate, i sez.

I wonder what's more horrible the book or the movie in the Twilight franchise.

You know, all this dumping on Twilight... I went and checked the thread mentioned in post #22. Yeah, it was pretty bad. So I went and clicked on a bunch of random profiles for the kids posting in that thread. Most of those kids had fifty to seventy-five books in their libraries. A few had 200+ which makes them paid member of LT.

I'm not arguing that Twilight isn't crap (I haven't read it, but it seems like a PG version of Anne Rice), but then the pulpy westerns and horror novels that I love to read are crap as well. It doesn't mean I don't also enjoy F. Scott Fitzgerald or Steinbeck. Twilight may be annoying, but it ain't all bad folks.

Excelsior: the movie is worse than the book, or at least the first one, I haven't seen the second (but I have read all the books). I know people complain that Bella and Edward's romance is based purely on Edward's good looks, but I blame that on Meyer's poor writing. She harps on and on about his good looks so much that you gloss over how much Bella and Edward talk, and how much they talk about. The movie, on the other hand, completely supports the view that looks are all important, since so much of the movie is just them gazing at each other.

IMO, of course.

Hollywood is so corrupt. How can I enjoy seeing a movie and relate to the movie if the protagonist is "ideally" perfect.

You should be fine, unless your idea of perfection is a guy who forcibly controls his girlfriend's movement and who she associates with (3rd book).

While they might not win any Pulitzers, does their lack of (insert your issue here) make them worthless? Does that mean many favorite TV programs are trash? Or comfort food as opposed to haute cuisine? I think it's the same principle - sometimes it's nice to turn off your brain, so to speak.

I am by no means tuned into what today's youth are reading (or not), so I can't really comment in that area. No one in school is forcing kids to read popular series. That may be the charm. What would happen if schools required it?

I personally feel eternally grateful for that 'trash' for getting my significant other to read more than video gaming guides. He started with Harry Potter, moved onto Chronicles of Prydain, Percy Jackson, Jumper, and is now on Sherlock Holmes and the Iliad/Odyssey. Next is the Divine Comedy and Bullfinch's Mythology. Not everyone who starts at the bottom stays there.

And as for the Twilight movies, the first was was really awful. The second stayed more true to the book, and I think it was much more well received by the fans. Not sure about the general public - they might have been scared off by the first film. I think either movie is pretty pointless unless you've read the books or you enjoy mind candy involving teen drama and the supernatural. The Harry Potter movies are great but simply can't fit everything in.

That all said, I've read the Twilight series - more than thrice - and each time it gets a bit worse. The first time through, I enjoyed the experience of feeling like a teenager again more than the literary merit of the books. The more I read it, the less charm it holds. The books aren't ones I would read into in terms of girl-power, the qualities of love, reasons for marriage, etc. The author states on her website that she based it all off a dream and she doesn't want people to read into the series that deeply. It's just about a part of being a teen-aged girl - the part about cute boys, every day being life or death, hormones, thinking you're smarter than your parents, etc. The part about being passionate about something besides the opposite sex was not featured. Although much more finely written, I don't think the focus of Romeo & Juliet was dissimilar. However, I'm not about to abandon my Team (cough Jacob cough), just like I don't expect others to never have guilty pleasures.

A friend of mine who is in his forties doesn't normally read, or rather, he makes himself read one book a year, even though he sometimes finds he has to grit his teeth to get through it. His son lent him a copy of The ranger's apprentice. My friend got hooked, sat down and read the entire series. Maybe if there had been something like that around when he was at school, he might have acquired more of a reading habit...

OK, I have to rant - I can't sleep. If there's a better place for this particular rant, please let me know, and I'll move the post or delete it.

Perhaps one reason why kids read drivel really is because they aren't forced to. I was always in the top class, got the best marks, whatever. As an 11-year-old, our advanced class read Newberry books like The Witch of Blackbird Pond or Island of the Blue Dolphins, or general classics like Call of the Wild. All very good, some fond memories of easy and enjoyable reading. However, what sick, twisted kind of educator forces Hemingway on a 5th grader? The Old Man in the Sea was required for Odyssey of the Mind. There is no book in the world more vile to me. There is no author I would like to raise from the dead just to slap more than Hemingway. I will likely never read his other works, simply because of that evil experience so long ago.

Great Gatsby, Brave New World, King Lear, Great Expectations... all pretty much ruined by public school English classes. Heck, it wasn't until a few years ago that I gave P&P another chance. My guess is that private schools aren't any better - my mother talks about her students' parents choosing courses simply to sound smug at cocktail parties (What 3rd grader needs Latin? Or biochemistry?). What 9th grader would voluntarily read the great Russians? Putting War and Peace and Crime and Punishment on a summer reading list really is punishment. But for what crime? Reading so voraciously as a child to be put in AP classes?

And if I did like the book I read, the required papers and analyzing killed any joy I might have had discussing it. Writing a 'thesis' in 10th grade about Tennessee Williams's treatment of female characters was difficult perhaps because high schoolers are just learning how to appropriately interact with the opposite sex themselves. Or do I just have really low expectations of young people?

I really do like the literary masters, but almost none of the ones I really appreciate I read for class. Sad.

Rant over, thanks for letting me vent. Now that's off my chest, perhaps I can get a few hours of sleep.

I agree. For one, I recall some of the things I was reading at 13 - certainly a great deal of it was far from quality literature!

And while I'm sure there are kids out there who stop at Harry Potter or Twilight, there are also tons of them coming to their librarian or friends or teachers and going 'what can I read that's similar to...?' There are lots of threads on LT asking that very thing!

I have read Twilight, and it does worry me - because of the romanticize of Edward's creepy behavior - but I have absolutely no dithers or complaints over writing style or anything else. Again, I /remember/ some of the stuff I was reading when I was 13! I've reread some of it. I wish I hadn't.

Developing a love of, appreciation for, and respect for the written word is worth some less-stellar writing. Moreover, developing the attention span, dedication, and determination necessary for some readers to make it through not just one rather large tome, but a whole /series/ of them is something that will serve them well, and that a lot of younger folks lack.

So if you love reading Twilight, go for it! Even better if you have someone in your life who will encourage you to think a little critically about what you read. Hooray!

When I think about the "trash" I read in high school gosh I hate to even admit it but VC Andrews.To me that is way worse than Twilight could ever be, did I stay at the bottom no. I guess I feel everyone's tastes are different and one man's "trash" is another man's "treasure"

>39 alsvidur:

I have voiced a (less eloquent) version of your rant many times.

Someone else did so recently as well : http://www.illinoistimes.com/Springfield/article-6827-age-inappropriate-literatu...

It's a shame that kids who choose to read *at* their level, regardless of ability, are looked down on. In many conversations, I've apparently been the only one who was not a literary prodigy. Apparently To Kill a Mockingbird has nothing to say to today's teens. They're much better off with Philip K. Dick. That was one person's private school experience.

In my opinion if you're reading fiction, you're reading for entertainment purposes.

Everyone has their own ideas of what relationships, love and sex mean. Regardless of what they like to read. I don't think anyone should push their opinions on anyone else!

Since you asked for an opinion, I'll share mine (but I'm not forcing it). I think it's great kids are reading, and I think the HP books were well written.

But the idea that any book is valuable as long as they are reading doesn't ring true to me. For example, years ago was the Goosebump series that was so popular. These were trash and reading them didn't really encourage literacy. It was just junk food. And if you physically eat only junk food, you aren't going to develop an appetite for something healthy. The same with books: some books are complicated and difficult and maybe they weren't that exciting when we dealt with them in school, but they stretch the mind. Essentially teaching children to expect more and dive deeper.

If you look at literature assignments from the 1900's to now in the school system, the assignments were MUCH more complex back then. Kids DID do Latin and classical literature regularly. Nowadays that is unheard of. I don't think dumbing down kid's books has done children any favors.

Sure, there were tough reads, and there still are (The Iliad? Seriously, did anyone like this?). But what's the alternative?

I'm a big believer in reading what my sons read with them or prior, just so we can discuss it, and so I can maybe help them see there is a reason it's assigned material. So far my kids are enjoying the more difficult of books because of learning the backstory of the author and the time period.

I think it boils down to expectations. Kids can do more if they are presented positively with the opportunity. But throw trash at them, and you see how it infects them (Twilight!).

#44 - But throw trash at them, and you see how it infects them (Twilight!).

How has Twilight infected anybody?

Nobody is suggesting that Twilight should become required school reading. But I do think reading enjoyable crap books like Twilight or the Goosebumps books for leisure at least shows kids that reading isn't something that should be thought of as school work. Something that can be as entertaining as a movie or TV

Kids are curious and I think that if they are encouraged to read they will branch out on their own. I know I did.

don't our egos transpire from entertainment. I dread these new age heavily possessed post ironic teenage drones that have become byproducts of their own obsession. Wait it appears im off topic here, nevermind.

I'm with #41. (And not just because my workplace is one of her favorite libraries. Small world!) So many people who read (or watch or eat) junk do not make it an exclusive diet. VC Andrews was an embarrassingly perfect example. I read completely different sorts of things today, but it's most important that I've always been reading.

I know a few people (teenagers) who read Twilight and got interested in reading other books, and one of them even thought that sequels of Twilight aren't really good.

Even though my taste has developed a bit since I read Twilight, and I can see why so many people hate them (I think even I may not like them much if I read them now), but I am still surprised that I am the only one (unless I missed any post up there) here who liked those books. :)

As for HP books, you can't compare them with Twilight, they actually have some very good lessons for YA.

As a librarian, I get to push books. I get to recommend other things than Twilight. If a patron loved that, then I will ask why and try to get to what drives the interest--character, plot, setting?

Reading is reading--don't you find yourself desperately trying to find something to read, and at times resorting to a label or sign, just for the distraction? Cereal box, anyone?

As for the "worth" of any of the books mentioned, get over it! Think of Twilight as brussels sprouts--not for everyone (myself included)! Or think of them as gateway books, that will lead scores of young readers to--dare I say it--other books. Dracula, anyone?

And apparently Twilight fans are now reading Wuthering Heights, which is pretty respectable. The characters discuss the book or something. So now you can even get paperback copies of Wuthering Heights that have the Twilight logo on them. Whatever works.

When I read Carl Sagan’s The Cosmic Connection I was thrilled to see him discuss Edgar Rice Burroughs’ A Princess of Mars. Burroughs was his and my gateway drug or mind candy whatever you want to call it. If they ever make a movie of it I will be there, just as excited as the fans at the Twilight movie although I would act with a little more restraint. Kind of like I did when the Starship Troopers movie came out.

I think I came out OK from reading those books but it could be argued the other way so I mentioned Sagen. Most of us will agree that reading pap when as child did not damage him.

Oh My Gosh! I can't belive this!! Twilight is written amazingly with perfection you really get into it so easily!!

Perfection? How?

I'm in the camp that believes that any book that encourages reading is good...but I also admit to reading a trashy chick lit book now and then. I enjoy reading non-keepers when I travel, that way I don't mind leaving it at a hotel or airport when I am done for someone else to pick up and read. And if I accidentally forget it on an airplane I don't get too upset.

Remember how funny you thought a knock-knock joke was when you were 6? Are they still that funny? Your appreciation/tastes/interests change as you grow up.

Language evolves, I really don't understand why so many people get upset over this. No one if forcing you (or even asking you) to visit the threads that are discussing Twilight, so do like I do with the Pro and Con group and just ignore them. It is easy and then you have nothing to complain about.

There are examples from a 100 years ago bemoaning the next generation...and yet life goes on and new discoveries are made and kids grow up to have their own kids to worry about.

Whew, time to get off my soapbox, I'm getting a little light headed up here.

Those people 100 years ago bemoaning the next generation were right. The world is and always has been going to Hell in a handbasket in large part because too many people make excuses for it or for themselves. There are niceties of expression that we do not have today because self-excused sloths couldn't be bothered to discriminate.

Twilight contributes to that degeneration.

Robert

>31 MrAndrew:

"nd if thy hd anythng 2 dscss i doubt thyd do it in cht-speak. Its jst so inrtclt. Thrs only a lmtd nmbr r wrds u cn us. If u trnd mst of th psts hr int txt-speak thyd be eithr incmprhnsbl r smplfied 2 pntlssnss."

MrAndrew, u mspld inrtql8t

I know what the heck was the original creator of this thread thinking. by the way saints won.

"by the way saints won."

And that's all that matters. :D

I absolutely HATED Twilight, I thought that it was badly written sexist rubbish. However, I have read all of the Harry Potter books, and really enjoyed them. I just do not get the whole "vampire" thing. And Twilight IS bad beyond belief.

The Harry Potter's books have made adults,young adults and children who do not liked reading before
to raise the interest for reading to the highest level.

Will there be another new book series for young
children that will capture the readership around the
world once again to beat the current book sales
of Rowling's Harry Potter books?

Any prediction?

I don't know that we need another Harry Potter phenomenon if adults take the time to engage the interest of kids. My daughter's "gateway" books were the Animorphs. Something about them just grabbed her imagination. And I read them along with her, so we could talk. When she caught up to the newest, she was so used to always having a book she began reading other things while waiting for the next Animorphs to come out. She's now a Creative Writing Major in college!

I caught one nephew's interest with Ender's Game, another with The Invention of Hugo Cabret. They begged for more, and I now keep a wish list for them in Amazon so they can look up the books I recommend and they have learned to check the "People who bought this book..." suggestions.

I volunteer at the local middle school in two English classes. I follow up the moaning and groaning about the books they're forced to read by asking "What would you read if it was your choice?" If they don't know, I go back the next week with ideas. It's actually working with some of them!