JoeB1934 Continues Reading Literary Mysteries

This new thread is a continuation of my 2024 postings at https://www.librarything.com/topic/356438#n8424834

I have spent the last two months searching for my next 5-Star books. Generally speaking, I have used an analytical based technique for sorting a 500 book TBR list. I have now arrived at the time where I pause the searching process and concentrate on reading.

I don't imagine that many members of LT are familiar with the phrase 'paralysis through analysis'. One failing of many who are inclined to analyze a problem ad-infinitum fall into this trap. During the last two months I spent more time in analysis than in-depth reading. Don't get me wrong, I do believe this was useful for myself, but the time has come to READ!

One observation I have made to myself about other readers is that it is entirely possible, in my view, to over analyze a book. Pursuit of things like 'what did the author mean about?', 'or why did the author do that?' are examples that can sidetrack from the pure excitement of a book.

Just to start this new reading focused thread I will produce 3 different displays of my 2024 books.

1. Books I Read and enjoyed in 2024 up to 02/15.
2. Books that I started but DNF in 2024 because they failed, for one reason, or another to warrant the reading time.
3. Books that I hope to read moving forward from today. I will report on each book as I read them.

If you have questions about what I thought about these books at the time I read them please go to my earlier posting link. I didn't always explain my thinking but at least you can get the drift of my reading there.

                BOOKS I REALLY ENJOYED

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                BOOKS I DID NOT FINISH

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                BOOKS I PLAN TO READ

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Currently I have 2 books in audio, which I prefer, to complete reading. They are Somebody's Fool by Richard Russo and Weyward by Emilia Hart

As time goes by, I will report my personal observations about each book. These I do not consider official reviews.

I will continue to add new books to this list as they pop-up on my interest level. Overall, I hope to read about 75 books in 2024.

I missed your thoughts on Study for Obedience, Joe. I see it made your "really liked" pile.

>6 labfs39: The reason you missed it is because when I was reviewing all my books, I intended to put it into my planned reads, but I put it into my have read list. I have been intrigued by the story since you read it but just misfired in my placement.

Will correct my display today.

Somebody's Fool by Richard Russo

I chose this book because I rated it as being a literary mystery genre. It is truly an excellent literary book, but not a mystery.

GR Details: 5,400 ratings 675 reviews Rating 4.28

The Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Empire Falls returns to North Bath, in upstate New York, and to the characters that captured the hearts and imaginations of millions of readers in his beloved best sellers Nobody's Fool} and Everybody's Fool.

The story revolves around a small group of characters that Russo had created in several earlier books. These characters are more fully drawn-out in this volume with excellent descriptive, emotional and psychological dimensions. My problem was that I never connected up with the characters even though they purportedly lived in a small town like I did.

The further I got into the book the more I became bored with the story. Some of this probably because the main characters were all adults in the 25-55 years of age and they were all involved in what I call 'shenanigans' because of my age.

I did come away with one thought that will stick with me.

The principal character is a middle-aged professor trying to teach college age kids compositional skills. In one class he asked the students this question.

"What is the difference between knowing about something and knowing something?

The answer was illuminated by a black student with two small children trying to cope with life and all her complexities. Individuals, like me can know something about the difficulties being a struggling black person, but that person is the only one who knows what it is like for herself.

The professor then went on to describe two of his own children, one in London on a Fulbright scholarship and one feeling that they are hopelessly a failure.

He told the students that the difference was not in their intelligence, but in their own expectations, which were shaped in childhood.

In spite of learning something about life I will put this book in my DNF group since I am not pleased to have read it.

Hmm. Interesting question. Wish you a better next book.

>8 JoeB1934: Interesting thoughts on a book by an author I've never read.

>8 JoeB1934: did you finish it? I read Empire Falls years ago and it just bored me. I think that novels about multi-generations of a family are just not for me.

>10 labfs39: Since he is recognized as an excellent literary writer, note the Pulitzer prize, you shouldn't disqualify him in your reading just because I did so.

>11 dianeham: Apparently that book was widely reviewed and rated, but we all know that doesn't mean you, or I must like it.

As to did I finish it, the answer is no, but I did skip through the remaining chapters in Libby to see what happened in later chapters. That is where I found the incident I spoke about.

My disappointing results from the Russo book caused my analytical gene to fire up. Why didn't my method for choosing books to read realize this outcome?

I found part of the answer when I re-looked at the designation for the book as being a literary mystery. It truly is literary, but in analyzing the mystery component I found that there were only 2 readers that chose to use that designation. No wonder I kept looking for even a small mystery and couldn't find one.

What you might not know is that very few readers actually assign a genre-like tag to most books. For example, in this case on LT there are 197 members, and the LARGEST tag count is 2!

GR has 5421 readers, 678 reviews and 27 called the book 'literary fiction'. 3 people called it a 'mystery'.

This observation, which I have known more/less for a long time has caused me to modify my criteria for calling a book a 'mystery'. This modification will cause books with a lower tag count for 'mystery' to lose that designation in my analyses. Doing so makes this book to be 'literary fiction' alone.

Even though I warned you about my tendency for 'paralysis through analysis' I will do a new ranking of my books to read and get back to you.

>14 JoeB1934: one miss for a loose system seems mathematically reasonable to me. 🙂 I might argue that the best literature _should_ defy whatever algorithm you come up with.

>15 dchaikin: I totally agree with you, and that is why there are two major ingredients of literary and mystery as part of my personal searches. This comes about because over my reading history the books I valued the most were usually literary mysteries. I haven't tried to measure the relative strength of the literary and mystery components. My analytical gene makes me want to investigate such issues, but for now I MUST concentrate on finding my current best chocices.

It is interesting to me that book ideas coming from dchaikin, labfs39, and kjuliff are only occasionally the most interesting to me even though they are always strong literary and certain ones strike my interest.

If I look at the balance of the 13 books I have liked in 2024 there were 7 that had a mystery and a literary component and 6 books which were only literary.

After thinking about the Russo book some more I realized that the fact that it didn't contain a mystery was NOT the reason I didn't like the book. After all I read non-mystery books all the time and, if I choose carefully, I love them.

The Russo book was from an author who has a Pulitzer prize (for a different book) and a rating solidly above 4. In addition, the book was all about relationships, and traditionally I like such books. So, what gives?

I simply never got attached to the people in the book and ended up bored. So be it. The book was an eminently appropriate book for me to read. It just didn't work for me.

I realize that every member has a personal method for finding books to read. Members I follow run the gamut: 1001 Books to read Before You die, classical authors, Literary awards of many forms, bingo cards, on a whim, various sources with new books to read by genre, books published each year since you were born,........

I have obtained BB's from many other members when the book they have chosen wouldn't ever popup in my system. I just add them to my TBR and evaluate them later.

I myself started as a reader of Scottish (British) mysteries, and used Marilyn Stassio, the long time NYT mystery columnist. Others came from browsing in used mystery book stores. Several decades ago I came across Possession, and others that brought to mind that the literary content is really important, whatever the genre.

A few years ago I discovered the category of books called literary mysteries in GR and LT. At the similar time I recognized that there were such books as books-about-books and coming-of-age, in addition to horror, science fiction, fantasy, etc.

These understandings led me to do a lot of analysis directed at finding books which were literary, mysteries, and a list of about 35 sub-genres that I liked. That analysis led me to the realization that the books I loved the most were, generally speaking, literary mysteries with many of my favorite sub-genres in the book.

The bottom line is that each of us can use a method which they obtain value for. Mine works for me, but probably not for many others. Being an analyst I can't resist tinkering with my technique.

When looking at a number of books I attempt to make them balanced across my favorite sub-genres.

>17 JoeB1934: If there was a scientific way to find books to predict books one might like I think it would be marketed. I asked the AI bot ChatGPT for literary mysteries and it came back with this:

There are many great literary mystery books you could try! Some classics include "And Then There Were None" by Agatha Christie, "The Maltese Falcon" by Dashiell Hammett, and "The Hound of the Baskervilles" by Arthur Conan Doyle. For more contemporary options, you might enjoy "Gone Girl" by Gillian Flynn, "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" by Stieg Larsson, or "Big Little Lies" by Liane Moriarty.

>18 kjuliff: Excellent try. I have read all of those, but I am surprised that they came up with so few contemporary choices. At the top of most lists are books by Carlos Ruiz Zafon, like The Shadow of The Wind

>19 JoeB1934: I asked it to give more contemporary examples:

Of course! Here are some more contemporary mystery books you might enjoy:

1. "The Silent Patient" by Alex Michaelides
2. "The Woman in the Window" by A.J. Finn
3. "The Girl on the Train" by Paula Hawkins
4. "In the Woods" by Tana French
5. "The Cuckoo's Calling" by Robert Galbraith (pseudonym of J.K. Rowling)
6. "The Guest List" by Lucy Foley
7. "Before I Go to Sleep" by S.J. Watson
8. "Sharp Objects" by Gillian Flynn

These books offer a mix of psychological suspense, thrilling plots, and intriguing characters. Enjoy exploring!

>20 kjuliff: I've read them all! I wonder what ChatGP would produce for the top 100 books?

Thanks for this list also, as it says I am on a good path.

>21 JoeB1934: OK, I’ll ask.

I will have to rephrase the question.
It replied:

While I can't provide an exhaustive list of the top 100 literary mysteries, as opinions on what constitutes the "top" mysteries can vary, I can suggest some highly acclaimed mystery novels that have stood the test of time and received widespread praise from readers and critics alike. Here are some classics and modern favorites:

1. "And Then There Were None" by Agatha Christie
2. "The Maltese Falcon" by Dashiell Hammett
3. "The Hound of the Baskervilles" by Arthur Conan Doyle
4. "The Murder of Roger Ackroyd" by Agatha Christie
5. "Gone Girl" by Gillian Flynn
6. "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" by Stieg Larsson
7. "Big Little Lies" by Liane Moriarty
8. "The Silent Patient" by Alex Michaelides
9. "The Woman in the Window" by A.J. Finn
10. "The Girl on the Train" by Paula Hawkins
11. "In the Woods" by Tana French
12. "The Cuckoo's Calling" by Robert Galbraith (J.K. Rowling)
13. "The Guest List" by Lucy Foley
14. "Before I Go to Sleep" by S.J. Watson
15. "Sharp Objects" by Gillian Flynn

This list provides a mix of classic and contemporary mystery novels to explore. Depending on your preferences, you may find many more great reads within the mystery genre.

I told it I need more.Answer:

I see you're eager for more! While I can't provide an exhaustive list of the top 100 literary mysteries, I can certainly offer additional suggestions to expand your reading list. Here are some more acclaimed mystery novels across various styles and time periods:

16. "The Secret History" by Donna Tartt
17. "The Thirteenth Tale" by Diane Setterfield
18. "The Shadow of the Wind" by Carlos Ruiz Zafón
19. "The Talented Mr. Ripley" by Patricia Highsmith
20. "Rebecca" by Daphne du Maurier
21. "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" by John le Carré
22. "The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency" by Alexander McCall Smith
23. "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco
24. "The Dry" by Jane Harper
25. "The Lincoln Lawyer" by Michael Connelly
26. "Before the Fall" by Noah Hawley
27. "The Alienist" by Caleb Carr
28. "The City & The City" by China Miéville
29. "The Devotion of Suspect X" by Keigo Higashino
30. "The Likeness" by Tana French

These novels offer a diverse range of settings, plots, and characters to keep you engaged in the mystery genre. Happy reading!

Wow! I have also read everyone of these except for The Cit & The City, which I will add to my list. It appears that I need to learn how to use AI for my purposes.

Pretty much, not only are they LM's, but they are at the top of my most favorite books. Some I read back around 2010 before I even knew about literary mysteries, but I just liked the sound of them.

Thanks again.

Have you read any of these books?

>25 JoeB1934: I’ve read the Patricia Highsmith, Le Carre and Rebecca and a couple of Tana French. I read Agatha Christi as a kid. I like all of Highsmith’s works.

Joe - her is the ChatGPT answer to what are some good literary mysteries set in Australia. Let me know if you want any other questions to be put to it.
Australia has been the backdrop for many captivating literary mysteries. Here are some notable ones set in Australia:

1. "The Dry" by Jane Harper - Set in a drought-stricken town in rural Australia, this gripping mystery follows federal agent Aaron Falk as he investigates a murder-suicide.

2. "Force of Nature" by Jane Harper - Also by Jane Harper, this novel follows Federal Police Agent Aaron Falk as he investigates the disappearance of a woman during a corporate retreat in the rugged Australian wilderness.

3. "The Broken Shore" by Peter Temple - This award-winning novel introduces Detective Joe Cashin, who investigates the brutal assault of an elderly man in a small Australian coastal town.

4. "The Rosie Project" by Graeme Simsion - While not a traditional mystery, this delightful novel follows socially awkward genetics professor Don Tillman as he embarks on a quest to find a wife, leading to unexpected twists and turns.

5. "The Lost Man" by Jane Harper - Another compelling mystery by Jane Harper, this standalone novel follows Nathan Bright, who investigates the mysterious death of his brother in the unforgiving Australian Outback.

6. "Crimson Lake" by Candice Fox - Set in the tropical far north of Queensland, this novel follows disgraced cop Ted Conkaffey as he teams up with private investigator Amanda Pharrell to solve a high-profile case.

These books showcase the diverse landscapes and unique atmosphere of Australia while delivering captivating mysteries. Enjoy exploring the mysteries Down Under!

I have been fully aware of Jane Harper as she is one of my favorite authors. The others are new to me and I will add them to my list of candidates.

I will think about other issues.

This approach would provide finding lit myst from other regions in the world. For example are there any from Africa? Other regions of lessor familiarity would be interesting. Another twist would be to pick a time, like 1900's.

You don't have to do these unless you are personally interested. I intend to learn the product when I get the time.

Hi Joe! I just dropped by to see what you've been reading. I'm taking note of the recommendations from kjuliff. My husband lived in Australia for years and I sort of feel like it's a second home. And although I've never been to Australia I have friends and family there.

>27 kjuliff: & >28 JoeB1934: The Dry by Jane Harper was terrific! I wasn't so enamoured with Force of Nature because it could have been anywhere and I didn't get the sense of place in the same way. Nevertheless, I intend to read more by Harper.

Fascinating

>29 JoeB1934: I’ll leave you to it Joe. You just type in questions. There’s not much to it. Hope you find it helpful.

>30 VivienneR: I’m not actually recommending those books. They are generated by ChatGPT. I typed in a question asking for literary mysteries set in Australia. It was an example to find out if it would work for Joe.

While continuing to refine my list of candidate books to read in 2024 I have continued to read books that I have had on hold for weeks. This is one of the ones that I am reading.


Weyward by Emilia Hart
Since many of you might not have been aware of this book, which I found to be excellent, I am bringing in the GR blurb.

115,012 ratings 14,474 reviews 4.10 Rating
Goodreads Choice AwardWinner for Best Historical Fiction (2023), Winner for Best Debut Novel (2023)

I am a Weyward, and wild inside.

2019: Under cover of darkness, Kate flees London for ramshackle Weyward Cottage, inherited from a great aunt she barely remembers. With its tumbling ivy and overgrown garden, the cottage is worlds away from the abusive partner who tormented Kate. But she begins to suspect that her great aunt had a secret. One that lurks in the bones of the cottage, hidden ever since the witch-hunts of the 17th century.

1619: Altha is awaiting trial for the murder of a local farmer who was stampeded to death by his herd. As a girl, Altha’s mother taught her their magic, a kind not rooted in spell casting but in a deep knowledge of the natural world. But unusual women have always been deemed dangerous, and as the evidence for witchcraft is set out against Altha, she knows it will take all of her powers to maintain her freedom.

1942: As World War II rages, Violet is trapped in her family's grand, crumbling estate. Straitjacketed by societal convention, she longs for the robust education her brother receives––and for her mother, long deceased, who was rumored to have gone mad before her death. The only traces Violet has of her are a locket bearing the initial W and the word weyward scratched into the baseboard of her bedroom.

Weaving together the stories of three extraordinary women across five centuries, Emilia Hart's Weyward is an enthralling novel of female resilience and the transformative power of the natural world.

Genres: Historical Fiction, Fantasy, Fiction, Magical Realism, Historical, Witches, Audiobook, Adult, Magic, Paranormal

This book is multi-generational, which some readers are avoiding, but I found the integration of multi-centuries in this case worth the effort. The way the author moves with the three women over the time I found to be difficult to keep track of but necessary to link the women.

The key descriptive provided by the blurb that drew me to the book, was:

Weaving together the stories of three extraordinary women across five centuries, Emilia Hart's Weyward is an enthralling novel of female resilience and the transformative power of the natural world.

The resilience of the women was what you would wish for, as the men in the stories are the usual abusive, domineering, representatives of the male dominated culture. This resilience didn't come without a price however.

I haven't read many stories about witches, especially ones that have the POV of the so-called witches. I came away with the utmost sympathy for their actual attributes and an understanding that these women were endowed with 'special' capabilities in healing techniques.

What was a surprise were the paranormal and magical relationships to the natural world. These relationships, mostly with birds and insects, were fundamental to the women achieving their survivor. I won't say how this happened, read the book.

I need to add that this maternal bloodline that goes from 1619 to 2019 never brings in any fathers. Maybe this is a precursor for the time when science has made fathers unnecessary to procreation.

>34 JoeB1934: More likely that women will become unnecessary. Why get rid of sperm producers. The hard work in reproduction is done by women.

>35 kjuliff: You are probably correct, but personally I would really like to get something to happen to our male dominated system. I don't see how anything is happening to make our society worldwide to recognize that the female psychology and talent can be the linchpin for a better place for all of us.

>36 JoeB1934: I was referring to reproduction. If either sex is to become redundant it would be women, as science is already headed in that direction.

>23 kjuliff: >24 kjuliff: Great lists! I haven't read them all, but probably about 80% of them.

>37 kjuliff: Interesting. I would think the sperm would be easier to reproduce than the egg or the womb carrying their union so men would be redundant sooner than women.

Just to add to the discussion of female vs male future development I decided to see what AI has to say about motherhood. This what came out:

The motherhood of the first humans holds immense significance in our evolutionary history. Let’s explore why:

(1) Evolutionary Milestone: The emergence of Homo sapiens (modern humans) from their early hominid predecessors occurred between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago. During this transition, the role of mothers became pivotal. They nurtured and cared for their offspring, ensuring their survival and passing on genetic traits.

(2) Language and Social Bonds: Around 50,000 years ago, Homo sapiens developed the capacity for language. Mothers played a crucial role in transmitting knowledge, culture, and social norms to their children. Language allowed for complex communication, cooperation, and the formation of social bonds within communities .

(3) Mitochondrial Eve: Genetic studies reveal that all living humans share a common maternal ancestor known as “Mitochondrial Eve.” She lived approximately 200,000 years ago and is the source of our mitochondrial DNA. This lineage traces back through generations of mothers, highlighting their essential role in human ancestry.

(4) Child Rearing and Adaptation: Early human mothers faced challenges such as food scarcity, environmental changes, and competition. Their ability to care for offspring, adapt to new environments, and pass down survival skills was critical. Mothers who successfully raised healthy children contributed to the survival and evolution of our species .

(5) Social Learning and Culture: Mothers played a central role in teaching practical skills, cultural practices, and social norms. They passed down knowledge about hunting, gathering, tool-making, and rituals. This social learning shaped early human societies and allowed for collective adaptation

(6) Brain Development: The demands of motherhood likely influenced the evolution of our large brain size. Caring for infants with extended dependency periods required cognitive abilities like empathy, problem-solving, and emotional bonding. These traits contributed to our species’ survival and success

In summary, the motherhood of early humans was pivotal for survival, knowledge transmission, and the development of social bonds. It laid the foundation for our species’ remarkable journey across continents and shaped the course of human history 12

To top it off the X chromosome has 3 times the genes of the Y chromosome.

I read current research into the ever-expanding story of the various lineages of pre-homo sapiens and item (3) above has always interested me a lot. In many ways that conclusion is why I continue to hope for an evolutionary development which could temper the male domination in many cultures.

I myself have traits coming from my Scottish mother and my Slovenian father, and both of them contributed to who I am. I can't imagine losing any of the traits, but I could be 'better' with some of them.

Picture of Percy


Here is a picture of my walking/reading companion. Just back from a walk with Percy. I realize many readers walk their dogs, but Percy played a special role in my now completed broken hip.

Over the last year I have had 3 serious health issues.

First a fall on the ice flat on my back. Cracked bones, but only 1 truly broken finger. Lots of back muscles damage.

Next came a left leg sciatica attack which was the most pain I have ever experienced. Weeks of physical therapy exercises.

I was back to short walks with Percy, and I carelessly tripped in the garage. Surgery the next day and 3 weeks in rehab enough to get me home. Now 3 months later I have graduated from a walker to a cane, and now mostly no cane. On Tuesday I will have my last visit with the physical therapist that has taught me the required exercises for each of my injuries. Medicare has paid for all of this except for very small copays.

Now what about Percy. He is an extremely communicative dog, and he helped us through Covid with his enthusiasm about everything. That smile on his face and his technique of a big sneeze to say he is happy with what we are doing is special. Like my daughter Carey says, we always know what Percy is thinking while other dogs in the family, and even cats. we're never sure.

Going for a walk is always fun because of his sniffing and looking for rabbits and squirrels. He is small, about 18 Lbs. and a terrier/poodle mix.

During all of my mishaps he has always been around me and very distraught if I have to leave the house for any reason. In the early days when I could walk on the driveway with a walker and on to the cane he always was walking along beside me, except for a side trip to check which dogs had been in the yard.

When I was unable to take him for a walk and my daughter took him, he always came tearing into my room to tell me all about it.

Pre-injuries we would walk about 3 miles a day and I could listen to a book with no interruptions and that has been difficult to replace. My reading at home is frequently missed because of normal family obligations.

I am now listening to audio books, but my main project is to get through The Master and Margarita in e-book form. That project, I hope will be finished in a week, or so and it involves audio as well as e-book forms. What a story!

>41 JoeB1934: He’s adorable.

Percy is a beauty! It's always nice when we can see what our animal friends are thinking.

I sympathize with your sciatica pain. I've just had a bout of the same problem and like you, the pain was extreme. Physical therapy is working though.

Take care, stay safe!

>43 VivienneR: You have my sympathy on sciatica. It is great what physical therapy can do. It did take me about 3 months to get past mine. I never did understand why it happened to me.

Best wishes to you also.

                   THINKING OUT LOUD, or TALKING TO MYSELF

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Over the last week I have been, at various stages reading and analyzing my reading. After I get back from my latest PT session I plan to explore those thoughts for myself. Maybe you will know me more than you care about.

I am back from PT feeling a lot better in the hip and Percy is begging me to go on a walk, but there is a light snow and I want to crystalize my thinking.

So, what is my issue? Basically, I am not very pleased with my reading in 2024. It isn't my health, as I had a terrific 2023 with a large number of memorable books and I had 3 different serious injuries last year.

Last night i was in bed listening to an audio book that has all the earmarks as an excellent literary mystery when it sank in that I couldn't see myself enjoying the book for another 10 hours. This seems to be happening way too often and I want to get back to books that are page-turners for me.

By the way the book is Miracle Creek by Angie Kim and it was Nominee for Best Mystery & Thriller (2019), Nominee for Best Debut Novel (2019). It is about events in the life of Korean immigrants to the US and the author is one of those immigrants, but it isn't an autobiography. The mystery component is there and the writing is superb.

Who am I as a reader now, versus 2023?

As I reflect on 2023 one important thing was that I fell in with the 'literary' crowd and they led me astray. No that was a joke! Learning about the books they read was educational and I became more conscious about the wider literary world that I was never educated in. I received a number of book suggestions from them that added to my portfolio, as well as comments from their perspective about books I read.

I also saw that each of them has their own reading objectives, and they stick with them, even over multiple years. I stick with literary mysteries but there is a wide genre contained in that label and I learned how my ideal book has quite a wide focus in sub-genres.

I also learned that the books I loved weren't necessarily books that they had an interest in, which caused me to wonder a bit if I was off track from the really good books. Just recently another member berly discovered me and when I looked at her book reading I was amazed at how much we love the same books! So, i'm not in the wilderness alone.

In 2024 there has been a series of books, The Bee Sting is an example, but there were several others that don't come to mind. In each case I looked at these 'popular' books, but I just couldn't see myself reading them. Their intensity was often more than I am currently up to. I have had one of those books Prophet Song as a candidate to read but recent posts make it very unlikely to be a read for me.

I explored this book by asking AI if it would be considered a literary mystery and this is part of what they said;

"Prophet Song can be considered a literary mystery in the sense that it explores the themes of disappearance, loss, identity, and survival in a dystopian setting. The novel also raises questions about the meaning of freedom, resistance, and humanity in the face of oppression and violence. The novel is not a conventional mystery or thriller, but rather a literary work that uses the elements of mystery to create a compelling and disturbing story.

I found that last sentence very rewarding as I have long advocated the expanded definition of a 'mystery' not being equivalent to 'crime'

>45 JoeB1934: I just finished Before the Fall which was a page turner for me. I reviewed it on my thread. I see you name in the books LT title page. Have you read it.

I understand what you mean about books letting you down. How about trying some Highsmith.

>47 kjuliff: Yes, I read that book back in 2020, I believe and it was a solid 4 for me too. As to Highsmith, I have read a couple of her books and I realize that she really is a pioneer in this genre. I don't know why exactly, but part of it is her usage of the 'bad' guy POV.

So, how am I going to get out of this reading malaise? I think it is to go back to my most favorite authors and stay away from newbies, no matter how tempting.
Time to break for lunch and probably take Percy for a walk. Be back later.

Now back and feeling good about my prior conclusions. So I will go on a search for what I consider my 5-Star authors for older unread by me, or new ones coming up. I know some of them aren't writing much anymore so I will have to dip into slightly less favorite authors.

Will post my finds after a bit more work.

>49 JoeB1934: Best to go back to writers you really liked. Hopefully they will have new books.

Here is one you might like -
Joe Cinque's Consolation: A True Story of Death, Grief and the Law. I have a feeling about it. It’s v good. I was engrossed.

Just a thought, but I wonder if you are being led astray more by your tagmash than by the recommendations of fellow members. I remember being quite surprised by some of the books on your "to read" list: Song of Achilles for instance. While it is a book I loved, I would not have recommended it to you (for that matter I would not recommend Auster, Cloud Atlas, etc. for you either.) I did however recommend Norwegian by Night, which you did enjoy, if memory serves. Maybe you could keep a separate list of personal recommendations vs tagmashes which rely on random people hopefully using tags the same way you do?

>51 labfs39: That is a very valid point and one I will give thought to. Every book you have recommended to me has been spot on and I appreciate them. There have been several, but offhand I can't bring them to mind.

>52 JoeB1934: >49 JoeB1934: Re your reading malaise and book selection:- It can help when thinking about a possible read, to look at the LT Main page for the book to see what other members have listed the book. If the list includes members whose books you like, then it can be a positive for you for that book.

Or look up a member whose books you like or who has often given good reviews for books you like and check out other books that they have given over 3.5 stars to.

Another idea is to listen to book review podcasts to get new ideas for reading.

>53 kjuliff: Thanks for those suggestions. It turns out that, at various points I have used them all. I especially like to use the 'books to borrow' from another member. Even the LT 'recommendations' works also.

>51 labfs39: Overnight I have thought more about your thoughts and reminded myself in a general way, where did I get my books to read ideas. They fall into a couple of general categories.

1) Tagmash of literary fiction and mystery combos. I went wrong by going down the ranked books and picked any book I haven't already read. This resulted in my being trapped by a number of postmodern books. I eventually got out of them, but it did sidetrack me.

2) Book reviews/comments by other members I follow. Especially from what I call the 'literary' crowd, this led me to books I 'should' be reading. This is where I got Song of Achilles. I didn't pass them by unless the book seemed to have too much stress to it.

3) LT 'Recommendations' for my favorite genres. These are usually good, but I didn't follow enough of them as I thought tagmash did it better.

4) Books to borrow from other members that I follow. This year I did a lot less of this because not many of the members I follow are focused on literary mysteries. I plan to go back to that.

Overall, my biggest mistake was not looking into a candidate book more operationally. I use GR for such purposes because it has way more readers of any book I want to evaluate. Always there are more 1-to-5-star reviews of great depth. Last year, for example I used the % of 4- and 5-star ratings as a criterion for any book. I realize that such reviews aren't most LT members method but it works for me.

The last factor I need to be more faithful to is the presence, or lack of presence of my favorite sub-genre tags. I really love certain ones and I need to look for those in any new author for me. If I stick with my focus on books by favorite authors, I need to be aware of new authors to me. Last year I found several of them.

One problem I have are those books which are well worth reading but they don't have many of my favorite tags. I'm not sure how to evaluate those other than by their % Rating.

>55 JoeB1934: By tags, are you referring to the tags LT members label their books with? If so I’d be wary. I could read a book based around mystery and not tag it with that label. Plus some people tag only for their own reference so they can find a book later. For example, I am reading Love and Summer and will tag it with “photography” amongst others, so I can locate it later. But it’s not about photography - it’s just that the MC takes some interesting photos at the beginning of the story.

Or are you using the description tags used by the publisher or an organization? Tags can be misapplied.

I can’t help remembering that when we had censorship in Australia, a book called “Fun in Bed” which was for sick kids, was banned as the censors assumed it had sexual content.

>56 kjuliff: Yes, they are what I call genre-like tags that members assign. GR calls them bookshelves. For me there is a very specific set with tags like: literature, literary-fiction, books about books, coming of age, mystery, historical mystery, psychological mystery, science fiction, horror, fantasy and so on. I use them only in a general way to help me categorize the books. I realize that being user assigned means only in quantity do they mean much. GR provides them from users mostly based on relative numbers for any given book. I always look at GR and LT to see how they match or differ.

I have learned in the past few years that my most favorite books usually have the most diverse set of my most favorite tags.

All is not lost! I have 3 books I am moving between in reading at this time. They are ALL wonderful reads to me and I will report my observations as each one finishes. They each are unique in their genre and authorship.

The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov


There are an incredible number of reviews of this book that I do not intend to amplify. One of the best is by dchaikin at http://www.librarything.com/topic/138560#3445496

Just to take a slightly different approach I used the Bing AI app Copilot to see what they say about the book. That was to ask if this book qualifies as a literary mystery. The response was this statement:

The Master and Margarita is a novel by Mikhail Bulgakov that can be considered a literary mystery. It is a novel that combines elements of political satire, dark comedy, magical realism, Christian theology, and philosophy into a unique whole. It is a novel that wrestles with profound and eternal problems of good and evil, and that blasts open “official truths” with the force of a carnival out of control.

The novel juxtaposes two planes of action—one set in Moscow in the 1930s and the other in Jerusalem at the time of Christ. The three central characters of the contemporary plot are the Devil, disguised as one Professor Woland; the “Master,” a repressed novelist; and Margarita, who, though married to a bureaucrat, loves the Master. The Master, a Christ symbol, burns his manuscript and goes willingly into a psychiatric ward when critics attack his work. Margarita sells her soul to the Devil and becomes a witch in order to obtain the Master’s release. A parallel plot presents the action of the Master’s destroyed novel, the condemnation of Yeshua (Jesus) in Jerusalem.

The novel uses elements of mystery, such as secrets, disappearances, and mysteries, to create a suspenseful and captivating narrative. The novel also raises questions about the meaning of freedom, resistance, and humanity in the face of oppression and violence. The novel is not a conventional mystery or thriller, but rather a literary work that challenges the reader to think critically and creatively.

The Master and Margarita is considered a 20th-century masterpiece and a classic of world literature. It has influenced many writers and artists, such as Salman Rushdie, the Rolling Stones, and Woody Allen. It is a novel that can be read and enjoyed on many levels, from the humorous and fantastical to the philosophical and allegorical.

Now, as to my reaction to reading this masterpiece.

I have read a few masterpieces in the past where I would use words like 'challenging', or 'difficult'. With this novel the words that come to mind are 'fun', and 'captivating'.

After reading the Forward by Boris Fishman and the Introduction by Richard Pevear in the eBook edition I was almost frightened to continue, for fear that I wouldn't understand the real authors intent. Fortunately for me I forged ahead to discover a captivating fantasy with memorable plot twists. Some of which were laugh out loud funny.

The chapter titled Flight was so fantastic as Margarita flew across, and beyond the city wreaking havoc and images that seemed drawn out of a sci-fi blockbuster.

Speaking of audio, the first introduction to this book came about when I stumbled across a 2-hour recording of a stage production of part of the book. I can't say for sure because I was so perplexed that I returned the book to the library and checked out the eBook I read. I have put the audio back on hold so I can now find out and have a hope of understanding the production.

I certainly never will understand what the author was saying about the Russian system, but the book was still one of the best books I have ever read. The details of conversations and scene setting by the author were so visually impressive that I could imagine being in the scenes.

>59 JoeB1934: I'm so glad you landed on a book that you enjoyed, Joe. I wasn't sure you would like the supernatural and satirical elements in M&M. I'm happy they worked for you.

Goodness, Joe. It’s sometimes very hard to figure which books we actually want to read. I never understand what’s happening to me, but it does. Sometimes i pick up a book, and my brain does something like say, “no! Im not interested. I’m shutting down and you are not reading that book right now.” It’s just weird. I would love to give you good advice, but I haven’t found any solutions. I just try a different kind of book. (I find boring histories the easiest. Weird).

>58 JoeB1934: but this is great to see. Three hits. I want to read the Savage Detectives.

>59 JoeB1934: oh, even better. Seriously, what a great experience with such a special book. I’m so glad you found and took in how much fun is inside M&M (and, of course, thanks for the shoutout. ☺️)

Somewhat of a paradox is that one of the best books I have read this year is not a mystery, but its literary content is very impressive to me. This book is not getting a lot of mentions in LT but on GR there is a lot with stats as follows Rating 4.15 and 5,493 ratings with 722 reviews.



The Museum of Failures is the title of a novel by Thrity Umrigar, a bestselling author of Indian origin.


I obtained the following synopsis by using AI:

"The Museum of Failures is the title of a novel by Thrity Umrigar, a bestselling author of Indian origin. The novel tells the story of Remy Wadia, a man who returns to Bombay from the United States to adopt a baby and to reconcile with his dying mother. He discovers an old photograph that reveals shocking family secrets and forces him to reevaluate his childhood and his parents’ choices. The novel is a story of forgiveness, healing, and empathy between a mother and son. The novel uses Bombay as a backdrop for the characters’ lives, but it does not imply that the city is a failure or a museum of failures. Rather, it explores the personal and historical failures that shape the characters and their relationships."

This is an excellent summary of the story, but it fails to capture a very important aspect for me.

The main character, who is a continuous presence in the story, is an immigrant from India to the U.S.

We learn through the story as it unfolds that he is in no-man's land where he is an outsider in the U.S. and India also. He went to the US with high hopes for what the US will be like. He marries an American and is very successful in business. The political upheaval in the US, along with racism is very disappointing to him.

When he returns to India after 3 years he has the same high school friends who he relates to, but he also registers that they have grown in their own directions. He is now somewhat of an outsider to them.

We, in essence, live in his brain throughout the story and this includes his emotions, regrets and thoughts as well as actions. The author Thrity Umrigar being of Indian origin has insight into this life as a member of two different cultures. The period in this book is mostly about life in India with its cultural issues.

Besides this immigrant/nonimmigrant dimension the final fact about the book is that is the individuals. The novel is a story of forgiveness, healing, and empathy between a mother and son.

I also need to mention that this book doesn't reflect on the class structure of India, or their strong religious differences. The religious factor comes into play as modern young people deal with realities today. The main character is from an obviously very wealthy family, but he has friends who are not as wealthy.

A very significant fact about him is his very high educational background and that he speaks English better than most Americans.

In retrospect I didn't emphasize how outstanding the writing is in this book, at least by my criteria. One event in Remy's life in America when he was a student at Ohio State majoring in creative writing, as a poet, comes to mind.

He went to a student party and at this party he met Kathy, who was to become his wife. Remy describes in detail the emotions, fears, uncertainty that occur when he first meets her. It was so detailed, as I said before the reader is living in his mind, that it was like I attended the party with him. It was so honest a portrayal that I lived the event.

Throughout the book the language is so effective that you don't need to speculate about what was happening, or why.

>59 JoeB1934: Added to my TBR, hopefully I'll get to read it soon. It sounds really interesting.

>61 dchaikin: I have exactly this happening to me as well! Even more annoying is when the brain before was "oohh this sounds interesting, pick it!" and then changes its mind to the "actually...no. we don't want this right now". There is really no other way than keep trying to pick other books.

>62 JoeB1934: that’s all new to me. Very interesting
.
>63 dicentra8: silly, uncooperative brains. (Sometimes i think my brain is actually run remotely by a cat, content and purring, than randomly having a fit and lashing out at me.)

I have been working on a plan for which books to read next. My current TBR list is about at 500 books so some serious thinking will be necessary. I first trimmed down to about 100 books by using the filter of only looking at books by some of my favorite authors.

I am sure there are several dozen other books that would be good choices, but by looking at each book in some detail I settled on the following 7 to place holds on. This list will have future additions/subtractions but it is in place today.

Is Moon Tiger on your list? Came up in my thread and I thought about you.

>66 dchaikin: Yes, it is on my list, in fact there are 8 members that I follow that have picked up the book. I will take a look at it to see if I should move it up as it does fit my interest level.

This is a perfect example of the game we play when trying to narrow down our reading with arbitrary conditions like: I want just to read books by my favorite authors. Of course, she isn't on my list even though she is in my top TBR.

Ha! I went back to the list above and 4 of them aren't on my favorite author list! So, I am already violating my presumed rule. I think I will violate it again and put this book on my hold list.

More investigation and audio version not available so will have to read an eBook.

New! I learned from your thread that it is available free on Audible so I have it.

Hi, Joe. Apologies if this has been mentioned, I didn't notice it in your threads or library, but as I'm just reading it, and it checks off many points you seem to be looking for in a book... have you read The D. Case: Or The Truth About The Mystery Of Edwin Drood, by Carlo Fruttero and Franco Lucentini? If not, perhaps it would be of interest. A quick outline: the world's most famous sleuths (all fictional, from Poe's Dupin to Simenon's Maigret) convene in Rome to resolve the mystery Dickens left unfinished in his The mystery of Edwin Drood.

It's definitely postmodern, but unburdened by philosophical "meta"--everything's played straight--although of course the reader can contribute this aspect if so wished. There is a literal "literary mystery" since to this day there is no consensus on how did Dickens plan to end the novel. The entire text of Edwin Drood is supplied, so no worries if you haven't read it (even better, one then gets to read it fresh along with the crowd of these very disparate sleuths).

>68 LolaWalser: I haven't ever heard about that book, but it does sound very interesting to me. I will track it down. Thanks.
Speaking of libraries, yours is the most impressive one I've seen on LT

I have now updated my books on hold and am currently reading The Savage Detective by Roberto Bolano

In addition to these books on hold I am winnowing down more of my TBR and have identified other books waiting in the wings to place holds on, or to delete from consideration. Those books are:

I am finding that my normal process using Tag Mirrors and an Excel model can involve quite a bit of mental gymnastics for me and mental fatigue can develop after a couple of hours doing this process.

In the past I have toyed with Books to Borrow from other members with similar interest to find good books for me to read and doing more of that might relieve me of some work. I have also used the newer version of LT Recommendations which employs tags in a way similar to myself. I plan to explore that idea using the tag combo of mystery and literary fiction to bring up book ideas.

Of course, I also welcome ideas from any members that read this thread.

Remember that I want to read as many books with 4-5 star potential as possible within my interest in literary books with somewhat of a 'mystery' component.

After thinking about my previous message for a day I decided to ignore this mental fatigue issue, even though it will persist, I am sure. Today I plan to evaluate my TBR list with a more rigorous usage of what I have been doing for several years. I was very happy with what I found to read in 2023, which to-date I haven't replicated in 2024.

So, back to work using all of my previous approach!

The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov


When I earlier talked about my reaction to reading this book, I also mentioned that I had checked out an audio version of the book. I have now reclaimed a copy so I could determine if it made more sense to me having read a eBook.

This book is a 2-hour recording by the Chicago Theatre on the Air. The production has a very long list of actors playing the major roles in the book. Interestingly enough there is a female actor playing Yeshua, the presumed Jesus.

Having read the book I could now understand what the play was all about, and I could recognize plot sections from the book. The negative for me is that the conversations, which went as in print, were too fast for my brain to process them.

My conclusion is that it is mandatory for anyone to have read the book to have any gain from this production. What I would really like is being in the audience for a stage production, or even better an opera based on the book.

>69 JoeB1934:

Heh, thanks. I hope you manage to find The D. Case, I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

>74 JoeB1934:

Failing that, there's a new film adaptation that just came out.

>75 LolaWalser: How do I find the film?

By the way I have now acquired a copy of The Mystery of Edwin Dood which will set me up for the D. Case

>27 kjuliff: The Rosie Project is not a mystery, as the blurb says, but I found it hugely entertaining. Might be good for when you want a change of pace.

If you read Tana French, I recommend starting with the first Dublin Murder Mystery, Into the Woods.

>76 JoeB1934:

It premiered in the US just two days ago, so maybe it will get wider distribution? In any case, I suppose it will be released on some media by and by. Here is the IMDB link:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14536120/

Note that there have been numerous TV adaptations, some Russian, some foreign. I'm aware of only one other big screen adaptation, a Yugoslav-Italian-French co-production from 1972 which I have on DVD but that seems to be difficult to find.

Some of the TV series are available online but you'd have to google to see what's available to you, if interested.

>77 Jim53: Thanks Jim, will check later. Unwell.

I found the AI description of this book as follows:

The Vanishing Act of Esme Lennox by Maggie O’Farrell can be considered a literary mystery. It is a novel that tells the story of three generations of women in a Scottish family, and the secrets and lies that bind them together. The novel revolves around the discovery of Euphemia “Esme” Lennox, who has been locked away in a psychiatric hospital for over 60 years, and her great-niece Iris Lockhart, who is contacted by the hospital to take care of her. Iris, who knows nothing about Esme, tries to find out the truth about her past and why she was abandoned by her family. The novel alternates between Esme’s childhood in colonial India and 1930s Edinburgh, and Iris’s present-day life as a shop owner and an affair partner.

                   My Scottish Heritage

This book had a significant impact on me because of my background, which I inherited from my mother, whose extended family left the green of Scotland to come to the desert of Wyoming looking for work in the early 1900's.

They were all working class from Stonehouse, a small village near Glasgow, instead of upper class from Edenborough. There were quite a number of Scottish immigrants living in our Rock Springs, Wyoming community and I learned a lot about the Scottish behavior from them. In many ways I could understand how some of the family dynamics in the book could occur.

In the 1970's we went to Stonehouse to visit relatives still living near there. Naturally we looked up and found the house my mother had lived in and went inside as the house was unoccupied. Making inquiries about the house we learned "the house was inherited by 2 sisters, and they couldn't agree what to do with the house, so it has remained unoccupied for a long time".

                   Now Back to the Book

I want to thank the members of what I call the 'literary' group of members who I follow for their thinking of me as a likely reader for this book. I am quite sure that they didn't think 'this is a literary mystery' and Joe would like it. They just know my reading preferences and which books would be of interest to me. It is also very interesting that almost every member that I follow has acquired this book.

From my perspective this book is a nearly flawless model of what I am looking for when I say I prefer to read literary mysteries.

My feelings about this book.

I was truly horrified by what society did to unwed mothers in Victorian times and well before that, I am sure.

High on my list of behavior that makes my blood boil I place abuse of children, treatment of females, and racism. This story has pretty much all of that. Parents, siblings, physicians, welfare institutions all conspire to torture and mistreat a young girl who doesn't even know how babies are made!

There isn't any graphic violence in the story but there is psychological mistreatment which is disguised as 'this is best for you'. The saddest part of the story are the countless numbers of events where if any person in authority had listened to pleas from Esme to listen to her and to explain what the problem was this could have been stopped.

The author does an excellent job of writing about Esme, and Iris who is a descendent of the family. Additionally, there are details about Iris and her own issues coping with not knowing anything about Esme, who's existence had been totally denied by everyone she knew. How she coped with piecing together the Esme story is very interesting.

It is very important to say that in the end I felt that a proper closing of the tragedy did occur.

A final note that ties this story to my Scottish heritage is part of my mother's story. She was born in 1907, just after the Victorian period. Her family migration to the US came when she was 15, accompanied by her mother with a new husband because the father had died.

A short time later her mother died in childbirth, leaving my mother without a parent and not friends of the new stepfather. My mother and the rest of the extended family of uncles and a younger sister set up a household where my mother was responsible for all chores involved with feeding and supporting those who were employed working in the coal mines.

Four years later my mother became pregnant by another young Scottish immigrant. All of the local Scottish community knew about this and somehow proposed that she marries the young man with the agreement that she could divorce him if she didn't love him. This is what she did, and I have a half-brother that she raised together with my father who married her a couple of years later. The community made sure that she had someone to babysit her baby while she worked. The main one was a French speaking woman.

Of course, as a child I didn't know any details other than my brother had a different last name and father. As I got into teenage years I learned some of this.

My Slovenian father, who gave me the love of archaeology, paleontology, geology and things analytical gave up his flying the plane he owned back in the early 1930's is a whole other story. Unfortunately, he didn't give me his tall, dark and handsome looks.

Very interesting about your Scottish heritage. I think we overnighted in Rock Creek on a road trip, retuning from Yellowstone to Houston.

>82 dchaikin: Yes that would be logical. I hope you spent time in the Grand Teton National Park, which has the best skylines in Wyoming.

Only a drive-by and a picnic along a rest-stop, unfortunately. Worse, I got sick the day we drove into Yellowstone. I was able to force some experience, but was limited.

>79 kjuliff: I hope you're better soon!

I am still working on a longer plan for which books I plan to read, but I thought it was time to show the books I have on hold or am currently reading.

Over the past few weeks I went back to my roots with regard to choosing books to read. Specifically, when I evaluate a book there are several analytical targets. They are:

1) Books whose average rating is 3.7+, and preference for 4+
2) Books with literary fiction and mystery tags. The mystery tag can be anything like a 'mystery'. For example, magical realism.
3) Books that possess tags for a number of my 35 personal tag favorites.

With the books listed below they can be categorized as:
1) 27 Books with average rating 4+
2) 27 Literary mystery books
3) 18 Books with tag count 7-12, 15 books with tag count 12-26

None of these criteria are sufficient to prove that a book will be memorable. They simply tell me that there is a reasonable chance to do so.
I will need to evaluate each books for details in order to decide if I want to proceed with the book.

In addition, I will be, per usual adding new book suggestions from members I follow and book suggestions from other sources. I will probably rebuild this list every month, or so.

                My Latest Books on Hold

---

I decided that I needed to get in the hold line for audio books with some wait time.

A book that I haven't finished because of my current interests is clearly one that I should love. After reading about 15% of the book, and liking it I performed my analysis described in the prior postings and finished reading The Vanishing Act of Esme Lennox. These activities made me realize that this book was never, in my current condition equal what I anticipate from others on my hold list.

I thought it only fair to mention this book for others to read.



The Savage Detectives by Roberto Bolaño is often considered a literary mystery. It’s a novel that revolves around the lives of poet intellectuals Arturo Belano and Ulises Lima, and their search for a missing poet, Cesárea Tinajero. The narrative unfolds in a non-linear fashion, blending elements of mystery, adventure, and a deep dive into the literary world. The book is known for its original structure, rich storytelling, and the way it captures the spirit of the Latin American literary scene.

One aspect to the book that I had some difficulty with is the non-linearity. That is a choice by the author, and I can live with that.

This is also an outstanding book that, due to circumstances beyond my control, I have 'read' twice this year. The first time was just before I broke my hip and book reading was out for a while. In fact, I even 'forgot' I had read it and it came on to my latest list of books to read.

I put the book on hold and it came to me rather rapidly so I started to read it and on the opening pages I thought I had read the book before. I searched my reading records thinking it had been in 2023, only to find it in the August-September 2024 period.

Another sign of my memory failures, I guess. But, I remembered the plot rapidly and how much I loved the book.



As I am doing for every book I read I use AI to see what type of book it is.

“Never Let Me Go” by Kazuo Ishiguro is a novel that defies easy classification, as it intertwines elements of dystopia, science fiction, and coming-of-age storytelling. While it does contain mystery elements, particularly in the way the story gradually reveals the true nature of the characters’ existence, it is not a literary mystery in the traditional sense. The book is more accurately described as a work of speculative fiction that raises profound questions about humanity, identity, and ethics.

This is a very precise definition of what the book is about for me. The key statement is the one that says "the story gradually reveals the true nature of the characters’ existence."

The story is truly about individuals attending what seems to be a special school of some quality and distinction. I won't spoil the book if you haven't read it, but I can say that it was about 75% through the book that it finally got through to me what was happening to these 'students'.

All I want to say is that it involves, as AI put it " a work of speculative fiction that raises profound questions about humanity, identity, and ethics.

This book is truly memorable to me and it has made me ponder even more 'where is technology and human nature taking us?'

I just started another book from my target list and it looks excellent.



Key Tags: Literary Fiction, Mystery, Race with an Average Rating 4.34 for 1843 ratings on GR


From AI:

“Those We Thought We Knew” by David Joy is categorized as a literary mystery. It’s a novel that delves into the dark underbelly of a small North Carolina community, unraveling the deep and unspoken secrets that stretch back for generations. The story follows Toya Gardner, a young Black artist, as she returns to her ancestral home to complete her graduate thesis and encounters a still-standing Confederate monument, setting her sights on something bigger. Meanwhile, the discovery of a high-ranking member of the Klan and a notebook filled with local names threatens to turn the mountain on end. The book is described as an urgent unraveling of community evils and asks poignant questions about identity and belief when faced with monstrous truths

In my previous post I introduced Those We Thought We Knew” by David Joy with the phrase 'excellent'. I am only 23% through the book and I now want to change that word to 'spectacular'.

In 2023 I described a few books as the Memorable Books of 2023. The criteria I used in applying that label was by using the phrase "I really need to tell someone about this book". This is what I am doing here today about this book.

After I finish the book, I will provide all of my reactions but please read the description above and consider this book.

>93 JoeB1934: This is high praise; I have looked up the book and am adding it to my TBR. Looking forward to your thoughts on it.

It’s interesting the rating on LT & On Amazon are both 4.7 - don’t see that often. Usually if the rating here is high then it’s lower on amazon and vice versa. Must be as good as Joe says it is. :)

Key Tags: Literary Fiction, Mystery, Race with an Average Rating 4.34 for 1843 ratings on GR


From AI:

Those We Thought We Knew by David Joy is categorized as a literary mystery. It’s a novel that delves into the dark underbelly of a small North Carolina community, unraveling the deep and unspoken secrets that stretch back for generations. The story follows Toya Gardner, a young Black artist, as she returns to her ancestral home to complete her graduate thesis and encounters a still-standing Confederate monument, setting her sights on something bigger. Meanwhile, the discovery of a high-ranking member of the Klan and a notebook filled with local names threatens to turn the mountain on end. The book is described as an urgent unraveling of community evils and asks poignant questions about identity and belief when faced with monstrous truths

I finished the book today and I still have the same feelings I obtained upon starting the book. Now I have to talk about my reactions to the book. I don't know what award will be given to this book in 2024, but it certainly deserves 5-stars.

It is true that there is a mystery contained in this book, but don't be confused by the crimes in the story. The crimes are there because they provide the author a mechanism for delving into the mysteries within this people and the community.

The title actually tells us how to identify the mystery, which is discovering true details about 'Those We Thought We Knew'. the best description of the mystery comes from the AI statement above:

"The book is described as an urgent unraveling of community evils and asks poignant questions about identity and belief when faced with monstrous truths."

I am in awe over the characterizations the author David Joy is able to develop for every individual in this community, from the black family at the heart of the story all the way to the white nationalists who are the 'bad' guys.

We learn about everyone along the racism scale by meticulous details in every conversation by anyone in the story. The net effect for me was to place me as a silent bystander to the conversations. I could truly feel the anguish, fear, and the sorrow over loss as I listened to the dialog.

The discourse leads to revelations about the role of racism in the thinking of pretty much everyone. The thinking has been developed over centuries and maintained by ancestral connections.

As a white person of course, I can't ever truly appreciate how a black person feels in a given situation, but the author describes everyone in minute details that are so observant that I felt like I can appreciate what is being described.

In terms of the non-extreme white individuals, I could see how their responses were equally believable. Some of these conversations led me to a better understanding about how subtle racism can be found in many individuals, including myself.

I should also tell you that you shouldn't expect to perfectly anticipate who the person is that was most of a shock to me.

One unexpected ingredient in the story is the importance of 'art' as portrayed by Toya Gardner who is the cornerstone of the story. She has come back to this small town to work on an art degree, and she is in the process of working on what sounds like an incredible sculpture representing her ancestry.

At this moment I am still trying to describe my personal reactions and I might well come up with more of 'I should have said that' in upcoming days.

Sure enough, early this morning I realized that I hadn't emphasized that the key players in this drama are those who are determined to protect their personal influence and power at all costs and that the majority of people can be convinced that they should assist them.

I had a couple of hours after finishing the David Joy book so, for a change of pace I went to an audio of Moon Tiger. A Booker prize winner and highly recommended by my literary friends.

AI tells me:

“Moon Tiger” by Penelope Lively is a Booker Prize-winning novel that has been widely praised for its intricate narrative structure and the depth of its characters. The story is told from the perspective of Claudia Hampton, a dying historian, who reflects on her life and her passionate love affair with a British tank commander during World War II.

The novel is renowned for its complex portrayal of time and memory, often circling back on itself much like the mosquito-repelling coil it’s named after. It challenges traditional storytelling by shifting between different points of view and time periods, creating a rich tapestry of human experience. Lively’s prose is evocative and thought-provoking, leaving a lasting impression on the reader123.

Critics have lauded “Moon Tiger” for its ferociously complicated yet fantastically readable nature, highlighting Lively’s ability to weave various narrative threads into a cohesive and compelling story. It’s a book that manages to be both intellectually stimulating and emotionally resonant, exploring themes of history, love, loss, and the subjective nature of memory"

Sounds like a sure winner, so what went wrong for me?

The first couple of chapters came across to me as a narcissist that I was listening to with non-stop switching of thoughts, memories of others and her own rapidly evolving emotions. Of course, that is precisely what AI tells me the book has been written to do.

These are the attributes that I dislike the most in an occasional person I have met in my life. The speed of the dialogue leaves me in the dust, and I tune out.

I moved ahead to a few chapters in the audio to see how this conversation was going and saw that I still wasn't up for the mental work I would need to put into the story.

I turned it off and my mind went back to Those We Thought We Knew. I enjoyed being a companion to those people so much more.

Upon further reflection I recognize that one key difference is that Those We Thought We Knew is about a cause that I feel very strongly about. Racism within our country is what I worry about the most as I enter declining years.

Meanwhile Moon Tiger is about a life that I have never been a part of, and it is about a personality that I don't admire.

>97 JoeB1934: sounds about right to me. She jumps around. Sorry you didn’t enjoy, but glad you didn’t lose too much time on it.

Hi Joe! Kudos on the excellent write-ups and articulate thoughts on your books. Please keep it up!! And Happy St. Paddy's Day and happy reading. : )

I have updated my books on hold in Libby and have included a couple of science fiction books.

As I go through 2024, I have accumulated 650 potential books to read. These books contain numerous literary-fiction books, conventional mysteries, non-fiction and other genres. Also, a variety of what I call sub-genres, like books-about-books, magical realism, etc.

I have done a wide variety of exercises to help me sort through those books to find the ones that I should appreciate the most. While I am intrigued by other book genres, I continue to appreciate the most classical literary mysteries.

In order to make the most of my time I have decided to focus strictly on literary mysteries and to avoid trying to see if any other books, like purely literary fiction books, would be good to read.

So here are 48 books that are tagged as being literary fiction and mystery tags combined.

I will be looking in more depth at them to sort them into a preference order.



I will continue to monitor non-fiction books within my interest and other literary fiction books any member I follow recommends.

I keep track of books I am on hold at the DPL to concentrate my current reading. Unfortunately, many of these are on 4-11 weeks away.



For example, a book that I recently read is:


This book is now on my DNF list in spite of the fact that the author has been a very long-term favorite. His stories are all about living and hunting is Wyoming, as I have done for much of my life. His details are extremely well done, and I can usually place myself in the 'out in the woods' with great feelings.

What went wrong? His plots have degenerated into more detailed dealing with 'personalities' in government and technological outcasts. I'm not exactly sure how to describe this but after a couple of chapters I thought, "oh, more of what I am no longer very interested in".

My current focus is on 2 books that represent the oldest literary mystery (unsolved) that I am aware of. These 2 books were recommended for me by LolaWaiser a short time ago as the type of book I would be interested in. Thanks to her.



I currently am trying to summarize these books and they are quite difficult reading.

The Dickens book because of the language when it was written, which I have as an eBook.

The D Case book because it is only available to me in a 600-page print book, which I find awkward to handle.

Here is one thing that demonstrates the difficulty in reading the D Case.

"However, if you happen to like Wilkie Collins, Agatha Christie, G. K. Chesterton, Arthur Conan Doyle or the characters they have created, you might enjoy this clever tale where some of the greatest literary sleuths of all time are brought together to solve the age old mystery of Edwin Drood. Or is that the real “D” case?

Great fun! A challenging read. A thorough knowledge of Dickens, Shakespeare and other mystery literature extremely helpful!"

After a number of hours trying to get these 2 books straight in my mind I decided to use AI to get the most comprehensive descriptions of each book.

The Mystery of Edwin Dood by Charles Dickens

“The Mystery of Edwin Drood” is the final novel by Charles Dickens, which remained unfinished due to his death in 1870. The story is set in the fictional town of Cloisterham and revolves around the disappearance of young Edwin Drood. Here’s a comprehensive summary:

Characters and Setting:

• John Jasper: Edwin’s uncle, a choirmaster and opium addict, secretly in love with Rosa Bud.
• Edwin Drood: An orphan and apprentice engineer, engaged to Rosa Bud due to his father’s will.
• Rosa Bud: Edwin’s fiancée, who feels no love for him and is frightened by Jasper’s obsession with her.
• Neville and Helena Landless: Siblings from Ceylon, with Neville developing feelings for Rosa and a rivalry with Edwin.

Plot Overview:

The fathers of Edwin and Rosa, who were close friends, arranged for their children to be married. However, Edwin and Rosa are not in love and decide to call off the engagement. Meanwhile, Jasper’s hidden infatuation with Rosa and his opium addiction lead to erratic behavior. Neville Landless, who is attracted to Rosa, clashes with Edwin, causing tension.

Jasper befriends Durdles, a stonemason, and learns about the cathedral’s tombs. During a night visit, Jasper steals a key from Durdles, but its purpose remains unknown. As the story progresses, Jasper’s jealousy and obsession intensify, especially after deducing Rosa’s affection for Neville.

Mystery and Speculation:

Edwin Drood mysteriously disappears, leading to speculation about his fate. The novel explores themes of jealousy, secrecy, and prejudice within the small community. Dickens had published only six of the twelve planned parts, leaving the mystery unresolved. Theories about the conclusion abound, with some suspecting Jasper of foul play.

Literary Significance:

Despite its incomplete status, “The Mystery of Edwin Drood” is notable for its gothic elements and being Dickens’ only true mystery story. It has inspired various adaptations and continuations by other authors, attempting to provide a resolution to the enigmatic plot12.
For more detailed analysis and character studies, you might want to explore academic resources or literary critiques dedicated to Dickens’ work.

THE D CASE or The Truth About The Mystery of Edwin Drood by Carlo And Lucentini Fruttero, Franco Lucentini, Gregory Dowling (Translator)

“The D Case” or “The Truth About The Mystery Of Edwin Drood” is a unique literary work that combines a novel form with a critique of Charles Dickens’ unfinished novel “The Mystery of Edwin Drood.” Authored by Italian writers Carlo Fruttero and Franco Lucentini, it was first published in Italy in 1989.

The book is structured in a postmodern style, alternating between chapters of Dickens’ original text and the authors’ narrative. The story is set against the backdrop of a convention organized by wealthy Japanese patrons who aim to complete unfinished works of art. During this seminar, the chapters of “The Mystery of Edwin Drood” are read aloud to the attendees.

In the intervening chapters, Fruttero and Lucentini introduce various famous literary detectives, such as C. Auguste Dupin, Sherlock Holmes, and Hercule Poirot. Each detective presents their theories and discusses potential clues to how Dickens’ tale might have ended. This approach allows the authors to explore the mystery from multiple perspectives, offering a blend of literary scholarship and detective genre tropes.

The book’s conclusion does not provide a definitive answer to the original story’s ending. Instead, it presents a satirical and academic examination of the text, making it both accessible and scholarly. The novel is known for its humor and offbeat satire, as it delves into the intricacies of literary analysis while also paying homage to the detective genre.

“The D Case” has been appreciated for its innovative approach to literary critique and its engaging narrative that invites readers to ponder the possibilities of an unfinished classic. It’s a celebration of storytelling, detective work, and the enduring legacy of Charles Dickens

What is still to come are my personal reactions to The D Case. It is a struggle but I am continuing to read it.

Hi, Joe, thanks for the message! I'm still reading The D. Case myself, I think I'm about half-way, and finding it quite fun (it is also leading to all sorts of side tracks, as such things will). Sorry to hear you're struggling, please ditch it for something else, this is supposed to be a pleasure not a chore! :)

>107 LolaWalser: My struggling has to do with reading a print book of this length. I am really intrigued with this analysis, and I will continue at a pace that works for me.

Yesterday in the latest copy of LibraryThings news there was mention of a new AI search feature called Talpa and I experimented with it a bit and found it to be potentially useful in search for new books with allowed reference to Tag combinations like I use.

>102 JoeB1934: ebooks or audio?

>110 dianeham: I haven't tried that, but my guess is that it would come up with book/authors and you would have to search for non-print versions. I think of it closer to their Recommendations capability with more flexibility.

>111 JoeB1934: so you read print books? I thought you read ebooks.

>112 dianeham: I always try to listen to audio as my first choice, then an eBook next and print only when desperate to read the book. I only have The D Case in print for this year.

What I was saying is that Talpa finds books with tags you give the search, or some other phrase to search for. When it finds a book to recommend you have to determine if the book is available in non-print form.

After some serious reflections I have decided to terminate this thread at this point to start a new one with the title 'Joeb1934 Reads Literary Fiction & Mystery Books in 2024 YTD'.

You can go to my new thread at:

https://www.librarything.com/topic/359527#n8481011