Books on writing that inspired you

I'm ALWAYS seeking out books on writing, by writers, that inspire me and remind me that all the blood sweat and copious tears shed are worth it. Can I suggest Annie Dillard to my fellow frustrated scribblers? She's an absolutely amazing writer and some of her reflections are worth a look. Can I plug Annie's THE WRITING LIFE and LIVING BY FICTION? I'm no big fan of Margaret Atwood's but I know she commends Lewis Hyde's THE GIFT to young writers. There's also Rainer Maria Rilke's LETTERS TO A YOUNG POET, Eudora Welty's ONE WRITER'S BEGINNINGS and, I'm a big Auster fan, so what about Paul Auster's THE ART OF HUNGER. Any other suggestions?

Cliff Burns

A few I like...

+ Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott
+ On Writing by Stephen King
+ Words I wish I wrote by Robert Fulghum

I've read the King book but not the Lamott--I'll keep an eye out for her stuff. Seems like a lot of Library Thing members have copies of her work so clearly she's got something to say. Annie Dillard writes a lot about FAITH, as well, though without ever being smarmy about it. Her book HOLY THE FIRM is one of the most powerful tomes I've ever read. Everything she writes is so lovingly and perfectly composed, I want to toss my keyboard and monitor out the window and snap all my pens in half.
-Cliff

On Writing Well by Zissner and A Word or Two Before You Go by Jacques Barzun.

John Gardner's The Art of Fiction and On Becoming a Novelist, two of my long-time favorites. It's pretty old, but I really like Dorothea Brande's Becoming a Writer, too.

Gardner and Barzun? Pretty heavy (and heady) material. Don't know the Dorothea Brande but I shall add it to my "Wishlist" (always growing, eternally growing). Trying to keep up with writing texts is like trying to keep pace with modern technology...a losing proposition. The main thing is to find a book that isn't like those awful WRITER'S DIGEST articles "20 Ways to Become a Best-Selling Writer" etc. What errant bullshit! There's only one way to become a better writer and, surprise, surprise, it's TO WRITE. Whenever you can, seizing any free moment to scribble a thought, an observation. I used to be a dishwasher in a fancy restaurant and I'd keep a pile of paper napkins on top of my state-of-the-art Hobart washer so I could hastily jot down any ideas that came to me. I read an article on writer William T. Vollmann that struck a sympathetic chord with me. Vollmann is a graphomaniac, someone who can't stop writing and sometimes I feel the same way. If I don't have a project on the go, something I can bend my brain on, I begin to act and think irrationally. The writing life is NOT easy...the only writer I've ever heard of that likes the process of putting pen to paper is Harlan Ellison. The great Robert Penn Warren called it "the pain I can't live without" and that's the best description possible (as far as I'm concerned). Any thoughts? Contrary opinions? Sympathetic murmurs?
-Cliff

I took a writing class and it was wonderful and it was awful. The good thing was that I wrote all the time. I write a lot anyway but with the class I was always writing. We'd read what we'd written and get feedback from the teacher and the class. The feedback was always positive. Well that was great for the ego, but not all that good for the learning process. I wanted constructive criticism, but learned quickly that everyone was scared of hurting your feelings or having their feelings hurt if you offered anything put "that was great." I eventually quit. My friends will tell me everything I write is wonderful, I wanted more from a class.

Belle

Belle: Puh-lease check out my article "Writing 101" on my blog "Beautiful Desolation". Promise me. I used to teach creative writing workshops but I quickly realized I was ripping off the people who came, hopefully clutching their manuscripts in sweating hands. Writing CAN'T be taught (I firmly believe this). It can only be learned through trial and error--bad writers can't become passable writers, sorry, it doesn't work that way. And greatness doesn't mean you'll be published. It's a matter of luck to get published or, more importantly, WHO YOU KNOW. Can someone you know plug you to an agent (without an agent you go nowhere) or a friendly editor. Writing groups like the one in Iowa are patrolled by editors looking for a certain type of author, someone who fits the stereotype they're looking for (a memoir by an Iranian woman? You might as well print money!). Believe me, published writers are VERY good at networking. Read "Writing 101"--it says all this and much more succinctly (and cruelly).
-Cliff

I found and read the article in your blog. I'm too old for a lot of the information, such as sleeping with the teacher. However I agree with you. In my life I've taken one writing class and one workshop and quit both because it was simply a place to go and read to a captive audience. I also agree with you regarding talent. It can't be taught. I wasn't wanting help "writing" I was wanting guidance, where do I go from here. Either way you're right, it's a waste of money.

Belle

I found Damon Knight's Creating Short Fiction extremely helpful when I took a creative writing class. I had read a few of his stories (and his wife's), so I had reason to suspect he knew whereof he wrote.

Belle: Glad reading "Writing 101" helped. I know some folks find my blog a bit negative (er, a lot negative) but it's based on over 20 years in the trenches of writing. I've quite deliberately chosen a course that is the exact WRONG way of getting published/famous...but at the same time I've preserved some semblance of integrity and wrote what I wanted to write. Never kowtowing to the marketplace, never accepting the input of editors/agents, etc. I've paid the price, though, financially and emotionally. Was it worth it? As you can see from my blog, it depends on which day you ask me. In the end, it's the quality of the work that matters. I include lots of stories, novel excerpts from my body of writing on my blog--it's up to individual readers to decide if I put my money where my mouth is (so to speak). Hang in there.
-Cliff

Jim:

Did you go to Clarion? I know some writers who did...and, again, it was a case that the really successful ones were the guys and gals who attracted the eye of their instructor and got a plug for an agent/editor. To me, a good workshop (if there's such a thing) is a tough one and one that sports a diversity of writers. I'm not a big fan of Knight or Kate Wilhelm (his wife) but they have achieved a certain reputation in sci fi circles (in my view entirely undeserved). But...to each his/her own. Just keep putting one word ahead of the other. Real writers write, regardless of the views or opinions of others. Be true to that inner voice. Too much "good advice" is proffered by people who write to a formula or follow a certain philosophy or school of thought.
Too many writing teachers do it for the money, to supplement their meager earnings as authors (again, I refer you to my piece "Writing 101"). That's an anathema to EVERYTHING I believe.
-Cliff

Just popping in to add a second vote for Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird.

Also, Mystery and Manners contains many of Flannery O'Connor's views and insights about writing (and parts of it are, of course, hilarious).

Frank Conroy who before he died was associated with the Univ. of Iowa workshop wrote a book called Body & Soul. It's a wonderful book about a piano prodigy. I read and re-read it. There's one bad note towards the end but the rest of the book makes up for it.

Message 8:

Well put Cliff!

Scary

I don't think writing is any different from other occupations vis a vis advancement through a nepotistic group of people who recommend each other, put each other up for jobs, exchange secret handshakes (sorry, you Masons out there), it's just that there's always been this illusion surrounding writing/the arts that merit alone will get you published or get your work hanging in galleries. The arts are no more a meritocracy than the civil service. I have a friend who works in a government job and he insists that getting a golf membership and hitting the links with bosses is the ONLY way to get ahead in his line of work.

Publishers are scaling back their fiction lines and with fewer slots to fill they're becoming even more conservative in their tastes, unwilling to take on new or unproven talent. That explains the rise of publishers like iUniverse, offering frustrated writers an outlet for their work (for a price). I'm not knocking iUniverse and, in fact, am pondering using that service now that my novel (an occult thriller) has been turned down by the 50th publisher I've approached. It's just that a book published by iUniverse won't get you reviewed or into many bookstores (except Barnes & Noble and that's only after you've paid a stiffer fee and sold, on your own, over 500 copies of your book). Good books go unpublished and good authors unheralded. It's not fair but there it is. I've been putting pen to paper for 20+ years and I'm still tossed in the slushpile along with the part-timers and semi-literate. And that's even though I have seven published books, 100+ published stories, fifteen major anthology appearances and reviews out my yin-yang. Some sobering thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em...
-Cliff

Wow, such negativity about writing and certainly not inspirational.

A book that inspires me is The Courage to Write by Ralph Keyes.

Negativity, ye-es. More like realism (see: my c.v. and two decades toiling in the literary trenches). That's why I need books like Dillard's to remind me that I'm not supposed to be scribbling away for fame or $$$ but in service to a higher calling. I also draw your attention to the title of the Keyes book you mention: The COURAGE to write. Couldn't sum it up better than that. That will carry you much farther in the biz than talent, charm or looks. For what it's worth.

I just want to make sure that I am reading the request right.

You want books that encourage you to keep writing or you want books on improving your writing?

From the sounds of the previous posts, you want encouragement. I agree with the On Writing by Stephen King suggestion.

I've just come across another good book that I've been finding inspirational and provides practical advice to writers from an agent and editor's point of view. It's called THE FOREST FOR THE TREES and it's written by Betsy Lerner (Riverhead Books; PB;2000). Here's a quote from Ms. Lerner I've just scribbled into my commonplace book:

"What's important, finally, is that you create, and that those
creations define for you what matters most, that which cannot
be extinguished even in the face of silence, solitude and
rejection."

Now THOSE are what I call words of wisdom. I highly recommend this book.

Cliff, My stomach dropped, reading some of your comments--not because I disagree, but because what you say is finally starting to sink in for me, too, though I don't want to believe it. I left grad school because of the you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours almost incestuous attitude, and now I'm working as a waitress and trying to kick-start a writing career in poetry (I've heard all my life that even the most famous poets don't make any money off their writing, but earn their living almost entirely from "acting like a poet"--and I'm o good at acting :-p). I think part of me is still living in denial, while another part is terrified I'll be in food service all my life. Luckily, I have a degree in comparative religions I can always turn back to (I usually have more inspiration and drive with writing when I have other fields, subjects and ideas feeding my work, anyway)... At some point, I guess I'll have to get a "real job," but I keep telling myself I'm still young, I have plenty of time. ;)

Regardless, though, I never stop writing--I write obsessively every day, not even out of habit but because it has become essential to my sanity (like someone else said, earlier). That quote in your last message (#20) says it all: it's about this drive to create, and the fact that no other aspect of my life fulfills that drive quite so perfectly. Writing is how I make meaning out of the rest of my mundane life. It's my way of faking grace.

That said, I also loved Anne Lamott's book, Bird by Bird. Whenever I start to worry about my career, I think of how she wrote through alcoholism, anorexia, the death of her father and then of her best friend (and how, even a successful author now, she's still neurotic and funny and jealous and hopeful).... and I think, yeah, I can handle this, I can do this.

Skiegazer:
My heart goes out to you. Just keep creating, day-by-day, putting one word ahead of the other. I've GOT to get a copy of this Lamott book folks keep alluding to--shall try an interlibrary loan. Real writers CAN'T stop writing, through death, despair and depression, the printed word is a source of comfort (or exorcism). Ms. Lerner makes the point in her book that only YOU can finally give up hope in yourself, don't let others (over 1500 rejections in my case) defeat you, convince you that you're unworthy. If you can keep writing in the face of indifference, outright hostility, you're the real deal. Dunno if that helps but...well, you ain't alone in your doubts and fears--

Anne Lamott does inspire. On page 52 she says, "A writer paradoxically seeks the truth and tells lies every step of the way." She's thinking of fiction, of course. The aphorism brings to mind a book I enjoyed reading: The Truth That Tells a Lie: A Guide to Writing Fiction, by John Dufresne. The only writing I've done for publication is non-fiction. But I've read extensively about writing fiction. I endorse the dogma that improvement in any kind of writing depends on . . . writing. But the next best aid to improved writing is reading—selectively and with the mind of a writer. Reading any well-crafted prose or poetry will do, so long as you like it, or learn to like it. Most of the best books for writers, it turns out, aren't ABOUT writing. But here are some that are, not least because they are written well: Making a Literary Life, by Carolyn See; Write Away: One Novelist's Approach to Fiction and the Writing Life, by Elizabeth George; and, The Sound on the Page: Style and Voice in Writing, by Ben Yagoda. And those in this discussion string who doubt the value of a writing workshop should have a look at Writing Alone and with Others, by Pat Schneider. My reading about writing is eclectic, and two other volumes are worthy of mention: The First Five Pages, by Noah Lukeman, and The Writing Life: Writers on How They Think and Work, edited by Marie Arana.

I don't know about the rest of you folks but I'm putting together quite an impressive list of books on writing. Thanks for everyone's input--my interlibrary loan roster is going to drive the librarians here frantic. "Good Lord, he expects us to find the time to turn these up?" Ah, they're good lasses (like most librarians) and have yet to let me down.

My view of writing workshops remains steadfast: from my experience I find them largely worthless. Perhaps as a mutual support group...I don't know. I worry about the homogenous prose I've witnessed, the concern people have of criticising someone in case their work, in turn, gets taken to task. You learn by doing, not by listening to the remarks of someone whose greatest aspiration is to produce a Silhouette Romance or a line of fantasy novels that is yet another knockoff of "Lord of the Rings" or, God help us, a novel set in the "Star Wars" universe.

(Speaking as a die-hard nerd--I shudder at Star Wars and written-by-rote fantasy novels... still, I do owe a lot of my childhood to them, and I think one of the fascinating things about J.R.R. Tolkien is how his work has managed to become so ubiquitous in modern culture that even people who haven't read his work know the basic story and the "world" in which they take place. But that's neither here nor there. ;)

I agree about writing workshops being largely useless (I've taken enough of them, after all!). I do think writing can be learned--no infant is born with pen in hand, so we all learn to write at some point. Developing the skill to better articulate yourself through the medium takes continued practice, which still allows for the possibility that you could just become very good at saying rather silly, pointless things (the remedy for that, I think, is reading constantly--especially challenging works that make you think and, as a writer, question how the author accomplished this or that effect and how certain techniques work, or don't work, in your own writing--and why).

In my experience, writing workshops are helpful insofar as they supply a steady flow of writing prompts and, in my experience, works by others that you read and secretly think to yourself, "I could probably do better..." Looking back, I think there were two influences on my writing life more important than workshops: keeping a journal starting in middle school that gave me unbridled, constant practice (by the time I graduated high school, the computer files were thousands of pages long and had changed format several times); and having a best friend who also wrote poetry and who was always eager to exchange notebooks and little-red-pen comments. It was our conversations about each other's poems that truly pushed me to grow, but more importantly, it was when we talked about what we had been trying to accomplish with our poems and where we thought we had succeeded or failed. Being best friends, we could be completely honest, about each other's work but also about our own.

I've never had that experience in a workshop, no matter how intimate or friendly. Often in workshops it seems there's pressure to be unduly kind to others, and politely mute about your own work, as if talking about it too much or discussing what you were "going for" were somehow egotistical. A piece is expected to stand on its own, but often the result of such an approach serves to divorce a work from the writer and his or her process, so that critiques that might apply to one poem or story aren't considered relevant for later works. No real growth or improvement happens for the writer because the process is treated as secondary to the finished product. One example that sticks forever in my mind is the time in a college workshop when a girl shared a poem about her dead grandmother--unlike the typical workshop, people were quite open with their criticisms and confusion about the piece, but not a single one of them acknowledged that the poem was a huge leap forward for this particular girl. Up until then, she had been writing fairly "safe" poems, but now she was exploring language and imagery that was intriguing, startling and even disturbing, not at all the stereotypical dear-dead-grandma piece. While everyone else was busy quibbling over the use of this or that phrase or line break, I was amazed by the bravery and risk that her writing process as a whole had suddenly embraced (and I told her so afterwards).

I think this is where workshops ultimately fail. Talking one on one with a close friend, or anyone who has the patience and attention to become familiar with your writing process over time, can allow you to focus more on process, since many writers are always starting new projects, abandoning others, returning to old ideas with a new approach, etc. The individual works become incidental, just the latest experiment in this new form or that new technique.

I think this idea of process-versus-product also rears its head in books about writing. Though I've read plenty of how-to-write books, I've always found the most helpful books about writing to be one of two types. One: philosophical works on poetics and aesthetics (Charles Bernstein's A Poetics, Aristotle's Poetics, Jane Hirshfield's Nine Gates, etc.), which usually explore the relationship of writer and reader through the medium of text, comparing multiple pieces and sometimes even multiple genres. And two: memoir-like books such as Lamott's (and Natalie Goldberg's Wild Mind), which share stories about writers, their personal processes and how they discover and utilize them. Neither of these types of books prescribe a single generic fix-it-all process to arrive at a polished "product" every time. They approach writing as a process of creation--the activity of creativity--that is complex and unique to each individual, rather than as a goal-oriented job of churning out literary commodities.

Wow--this post ended up being much longer than I expected. Sorry about that. :) Anyway, just my two cents.

Er...I'd say that was worth a whole lot more than two cents. I empathize with what you're saying, particularly vis a vis writing groups (won't bore you by repeating myself ad nauseum). I think finding a writer/mentor might be a more rewarding approach--I can't speak from personal experience because I've never really sought praise or criticism from anyone, preferring the hard, personal, solitary slog. I've learned most from reading better writers than me, dissecting their sentences and syntax, trying to figure out how the hell they DID that. In the end, the writer has to decide for him/herself how much input to take in, separate the wheat from the chaff. A good rule of thumb is if the person critiquing you weighs 300 pounds, wears rubber boots every day of the year and picks their nose in public, chances are they have nothing worthwhile to say. And if I just described your creative writer teacher, child, you are in for a world of hurt...

Writers on Writing, collected essays from the New York Times is a hell of a series. Also check out The Din in the Head by Cynthia Ozick, The Occasions of Poetry by Thom Gunn, Poetry and the Age by Randall Jarrell and On Writers and Writing by John Gardner. Great books all, and inspirational.

Oh. My. God. MORE titles to add to my wishlist. You guys, the folks at my local library are going to hate you like past-due yoghurt. I read Jarrell's "Ball Turret Gunner" back in high school and loved it then. John, you owe me, that's all I have to say.

Jarrell wrote some fine poetry, but I think his best work was as a critic, and the book I cited is an amazing tour through modern poetry by a master guide.

And my apologies to the folks at your library; but, hell, it'll give 'em something to do other than adding names to the final Harry Potter waiting list.

I read The Elements of Style, but liked Stephen King's On Writing more. Mainly because not only do you get King's writing advice, you get his autobiography in the same book! Bonus! But really, King's On Writing is a good one because he's not too conservative about what you should write (keep in mind, King is one of the masters of Horror writing, he gets paid to write unconventional books).

I've found writers workshops helpful in my understanding how much the author knows and doesn't know about their own writing, and sometimes helpful in looking back at my own. However, if the writer giving the workshop doesn't have a clear picture of his own voice, then yes, that day or so is going to end up as a waste of time.
i've also found some writers completely different then they write!

Given the chance, i suggest you jump at spending an afternoon with Gary Snyder, sorry you missed Ginsberg, and i'm not going to throw out any of those who i came away from, shaking my head and thinking to myself "what'd i ever see in this @$$h*&e??"

It's tough when a writer/hero doesn't live up to our expectations. Trust the tale, not the teller. I would likely have ended up strangling Celine if I'd met him (for his political/racial views, etc.) but I still consider him one of the foremost writers of the 20th century (Beckett, whose views were diametrically opposed to Celine's, also admired his work and ol' Sam was never an easy man to please). Many writers I know--or know of--are socially inept creatures, eccentric, if not a bit mad (and I'm including myself in that group too). It's the solitary, solipsistic life. Sadly, some of these scribes try to teach or lead workshops and have none of the people-handling skills necessary to do a good job. I also reject the "boot camp" approach of Gordon Lish. Again, the only possible use I see for workshops is networking, getting contacts for agents and editors and unless you're one of the instructor's little favorites that's a long shot. Much better to save your tuition fees and buy a stack of good books or the complete Oxford English dictionary. You'll be much better served...

I've just read Wannabe A Writer by Jane Wenham-Jones which was brilliant - very funny but packed with insider info from bestselling authors and top people in the publishing industry. It made a real change from most how-to books and also inspired me to get back to my writing.

What a great topic. Here's a list of books that have helped paved the treacherous writing path I've stumbled and hurdled over the years.

Flannery O'Connor Mystery and Manners
Robert Olen Butler's From where you dream
The Paris Review The Paris Review Interviews, Vol. 1 (influential interviews with writers--both past and present--like Joan Didion, Ernest Hemingway, Truman Capote, former New Yorker editor Robert Gottlieb, Dorothy Parker and more.
Noah Lukeman A Dash of Style
Adam Sexton Master class in fiction writing
Brenda Ueland If you want to write (new edition comes out later next month, which includes an intro from Andrei Codrescu0

More. Bloody. Books. I'll just slip a mailing address in here and you folks can just save me the trouble of finding these titles. Lots of stuff to sift through and consider. I'm very grateful. I'll be tied up for awhile with a couple of writing projects and a looming deadline for a short story anthology but I'll still occasionally pop in and see what you're up to. Meantime, you're welcome to drop by my blog (Google "Beautiful Desolation") for updates or to find out the latest news. Thanks to one and all--

Full disclosure: The biggest influences on my writing were my father and the memory of my grandfather, both of whom did other things for a living and wrote short stories for the pulp magazines as a sideline. I grew up, therefore, in the tradition of writing-as-craft rather than writing-as-art.

The Elements of Style for all the same reasons it inspires everyone else.

The Writer's Art by James J. Kilpatrick--the most compelling discussion of the writing-as-craft philosophy I've ever read, though On Writing isn't bad. Superb examples, too.

Writing To Sell by Scott Meredith--I read the first edition (from the early 50s), which would be horribly dated today . . . if only because the magazine market for short stories (vibrant then) is dead now. Still, its basic principles about markets and audiences have stuck with me, and I recently discovered there's a new edition out.

Science Fiction Writer's Workshop 1 by Barry B. Longyear was something a close friend and fellow SF fan loaned me when we were in high school. We were both fooling around with writing SF stories in those days, and Longyear (whose work I greatly admired) made it abundantly clear just what kind of work as involved in getting my stuff from where it was to where it needed to be to have a shot at publication. (In the event, I went to grad school and took up writing history books . . . my SF-writing career is on hold until retirement ).

ABVR:

Oldies but goodies. Thanks for the contributions. Scott Meredith was a big time agent in his time and his agency might still be around, in one form or another. Whatever happened to Barry Longyear? They did a movie version of his book, ENEMY MINE, maybe he retired of the proceeds (something I only dream of).

I was hoping for at least a nugget of wisdom from Cormac McCarthy on the Oprah show the other day but he seemed too dispirited (or disinterested) to really engage his hostess in any meaningful way. A very poor showing on his part...perhaps the reason they only ran about fourteen-sixteen minutes of an interview that purportedly was an hour long. He didn't want to be there and she knew it, her editing team cobbling together his lackluster answers as best they could. Tip for Cormac: next time try "Charlie Rose".

Earlier this spring I read Negotiating with the Dead, by Margaret Atwood, and that got me started on reading more of these books for the first time in years. I've since read Reading Like a Writer by Francine Prose and Bird-by-Bird by Ann Lamott. I thought these were all great. Currently I'm onto Pen on Fire, by Barbara DeMarco-Barrett, and I think this one may be the best yet because it mixes the philosophical aspect of writing with a exercises to illustrate the author's points. Also, it's easy to read because the book is divided into almost 60 mini-topics. Next on the list is Writing Down the Bones by Natalie Goldberg.

For poets, The Ode Less Travelled by Stephen Fry is indispensable. If you're already familiar with metre you can happily skip over the first few chapters (although I was really happy to have a quick refresher course), and you'll find the section on form incredibly challenging. It encouraged me to try forms I'd previously looked at in terror, and I find myself going back to it again and again when I need to find exactly the right way to express a particular idea.

Just to mention, I secured a copy of BIRD BY BIRD by Anne Lamott (mentioned a couple of times in this post) and I think it's terrific. Earthy and practical as well as being inspiring. Thanks, one and all, to the folks who recommended it.
I owe ya...

okay, cliffburns. you havegone too far in your ascerbic rantings. In #26 you say a person 300 pounds, who wears rubber boots and picks his nose in public has nothing to say.

I am 322 pounds, wear leather moccasins (as i have "black feet" from diabetes), and pick my nose in public (unobtrusively).

i also squelch my farts, gaggle my burps, and try not to knock anyone over when I move in my pendulous waddle side to side through a crowd.

hey cliffie: let's you and me hook up in a lonely, dark schoolyard or woods lot somewhere and have a physical conversation. Maybe I'll teach you I have something to day!

(The last graf is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek).

Seriously, Cliff, don't judge either a book by its cover, or a person's ability by how they look. If you become more open in your judgements, you'll write better, too (in a spiritual sense).

Been there. Done that. Got the tee-shirt.

almost forgot the thread theme:

books that have helped me with my writing:

Books about writing: NONE. Books written by the tens of thousands that I have read: ALL.

people who have changed, formed, and greatly helped me develop my style:

Mike Shaara, Florida State, (Pulitzer Prize winner and good friend).

Steve Becker, Universityof Centry Florida, the "last purist of the English language" according a New York times review eons ago.

Wyatt Wyatt, University of Central Florida, published novelist.

Harry Crews, University of Florida, teacher.

Bertrand Helflin, Chairman of the English Department, Daytona Beach Junior College, 1966-70-something).

Charles LePoint, city editor, Daytona Beach News-Journal, circa 1968-69.

and a score more individuals paid by me to edit and comment on my mses.

Gotcha, Andy.

There was one particular guy who used to hang out in a city library I was picturing when I wrote that (satirical) comment. I should add that he always carried a duffel bag of soft rubber balls which he would meticulously sort through until he found one he liked, picked it up and...sniffed it. No kidding. We called him "Sniffer".

Mike Shaara wrote some historical novels on the Civil War, didn't he? KILLER ANGELS? Is that right?

And Monsieur Crews I definitely have read. A bookseller friend turned me on to him.

The others I admit I'm not familiar with.

I have dim views of creative writing programs and workshops, having taught a number of them myself. I've posted about this (at length) on my site and I won't blog pimp further on that. Some people may thrive in that environment but I'm an autodidact, preferring to learn by DOING and by reading the masters.

I've been writing professionally for more than two decades now and don't anticipate changing my views on this any time soon. I hope your own writing flourishes, whatever the environment and regardless of the path you've chosen (or has chosen you).

Cliff, I know you're probably sick of suggestions by now, but I have to share one more with you.

How to be Your Own Literary Agent by Richard Curtis is the most terrifying book I've read in years. If your resolve is weak, your sense of self-worth underdeveloped, this brutal, realistic look at the publishing business will scare you right into a telecommunications job.

But it's a wonderful book for all its terrors - Curtis knows whereof he speaks, and he shares all in a clear, simple tone. Take a look sometime.

I've heard of Curtis (natch) but that title worries me. Something about that line about "Someone who represents himself has a fool for a client". Then again, I'm guilty of doing just that so my credibility is ZERO. I shall look for the Curtis and send you the bill.

as a (in)famous president of ours once said: LET ME MAKE THIS PERFECTLY CLEAR!

I too despise writing workshops, but if you may have noticed, all the people I mentioned were "teaching" writing at the university level and each of them had been commercially successful with their writing. The more or less writing seminar or group one generally thinks of usually turns out to be a circle jerk. One example here in Florida is a state-wide writers "association" who has no one of note belonging to it and who provides only the "services" they get money for. That's a good living (if you can live with yourself): Take your professional bylines in the bumfart podunk news and tout them as proof you can charge $100 an hour to "teach" writing.

That book mentioned in the last two posts I own and just came across while taking it from the boxes I'd stored in 2003. Now I've got to read it. I was going to toss it at a yard sale.

Thanks for the tip.

I can't forget Hemingway's answer when asked by a journalist how one becomes a writer.

"Have a terrible childhood and read voraciously," he said. (he said "a lot" actually, but i love the word "voraciously."

And then there is John Dann MacDonald, whose belief it was that writers are born as "a separate race of humans."

hm.

Surprisingly none of the books I want to recommend have turned up so far:

The Writing Life by Annie Dillard is a wonderful book I return to again and again, I like her rigour. And an early book I came upon and often return to (though not everything applies to someone who writes mostly poetry) is Dorothea Brande's Becoming A Writer

The Concert of Tenses by Tess Gallagher is a very fine book of essays about poetry.

Volumes of essays by writers are also helpful, especially writers like Margaret Atwood or Hanif Kureishi.

I also have a pile of books on my desk I hope will offer interesting inspiration including Story by Robert McKee and Seven Plots by Booker.

But of course the best inspiration is just to keep on reading!

Caroline

Cliff -

The Curtis book doesn't recommend that you become your own agent - but it details exactly what an agent must know, the kinds of things an agent must do, goes step-by-step through contractual points, rights and other important legal issues...

So if you DO decide to represent yourself, you'll at least have a fighting chance to come out of the deal with a bit of money and integrity intact.

The sections on electronic publishing are fascinating, as are the predictions and pleas for the future of the business. You'll get a lot out of the book. But, sorry, I'm afraid I won't be able to accept your bill. My wife thinks I spend too much money on books for ME - I'm not gonna contribute to every random Canadian who comes along!

I'll throw out a book, with sound advice, that I don't believe has been covered here: Unstuck by Jane Anne Staw. Main point: setting aside a huge block of time to play "catch up" with one's writing, after a lengthy bought of inactivity, is a B-A-D idea.

As for Anne Lamott ... it's a lot easier when your daddy's agent is willing to help you, no?

John: I'm a "random Canadian"? I'll be getting advice from my solicitors re: that one.

Andy: I've always loved that Hemingway quote.

Caroline: Annie Dillard is my HERO. The most perfect writer in the English language (in my opinion). She just announced that her latest book will be her last. She intends to spend her retirement reading and relaxing. God bless her.

Seajack: Another book suggestion. My list is as long as a gibbon's arm. The notion of coming back to writing, getting those creative muscles up to speed after a long lay-off TERRIFIES me. What if someone has covered up the well of inspiration? Posted a guard? Who brushes me off when I protest? This kinda thing keeps me awake at night. ALL night...

I'll second the recommendation of Noah Lukeman's books on writing.

My personal top favorite, though, is Donald Maass's Writing the Breakout Novel. It's the first and only book on writing that I had to keep putting down every few pages because I would get an exciting idea about something to do with my novel which I would immediately have to start working on.

Most of the "Writer's Digest"-style books on writing include exercises and urge people not to read straight through but to stop and do the exercises at the end of every chapter. Almost invariably, I will read straight through and not do the exercises, because doing them would mean devoting writing time to something other than a current project. A lot of these books are helpful in one way or another, but Maass's book is the only one that keeps inspiring me to go back to my current work and make it more meaningful and exciting.

Re: the seemingly unending debate about writing workshops...

I belong to a university Creative Writing Society, and we've found that we don't get as much benefit from it as we'd like to because there's always at least one who comes for affirmation rather than criticism. BUT these ones usually leave after a while and form a splinter group. In the meantime, what P. G. Wodehouse would refer to as 'the old sweats' stick around and become actually very close friends. For some reason, the closer we become, the less likely we are to turn into, as andyray so delicately put it, a circle jerk. I guess we're comfortable enough with each other to offer honest criticism.

Of course, it's arguable then as to whether we're a writing society or just a bunch of friends who like writing.

I seem to have argued myself round in a circle... I guess the moral of the story is that writing circles are a good place to meet people who may potentially become good friends and be very helpful to your writing, even if the actual meetings aren't.

I liked Steinbeck's Journal of a Novel. Not so much about writing as peeking into his brain while he was writing East of Eden.

Amazing that no one has yet mentioned the book I feel is, hands down, the best one on writing novels. It's a must have for anyone serious.

Techniques of the Selling Writer by Dwight V. Swain

It has a nuts and bolts approach that takes apart the tools of fiction technique like no other manual for writing.

Another good one, for understanding plotlines is titled Story by Robert McKee (Sorry if the touchstone for this title doesn't appear - it seems to be trapped into loading)

The first title gives you the 'how to' approach. The second, insight into the 'why this approach'

I think I'd have sold my first novel five years sooner, if I'd gotten hold of Swain's book. Good ideas need sound delivery.

Swain book noted and, ulp, added to my list (now starting to look like the contents of the Library of Alexandria). Thanks...

Swain's book has always troubled me for exactly some reasons people have posted about at amazon.

"If you're looking to express your inner soul, then this is not the right book, as it's intended for commercial success, not "art."

"Good writing is not the subject here, commercial writing is. Mister Swain's purpose is to teach you how to produce fiction that will sell."

I'm more of the type of writer that says let your readership find you and write what you('d) like to read. But that's me. I've had his book on my shelf for a while and really don't reference it much.

If Dwight Swain is Yoda, then Jack M. Bickham is his Luke Skywalker. Bickham takes Swain's ideas and really makes them more palatable; especially Scene and Sequel.

Look for the original edition of Bickham's Writing Novels That Sell. It's brilliant.

I also learned a lot from Secrets of the world's best-selling writer : the storytelling techniques of Erle Stanley Gardner, which shows how Erle Stanley Gardner managed to crank out all those Perry Mason novels.

I love this book, benjclark. I would also recommend Eudora Welty's books on writing, One Writer's Beginnings and On Writing. The latter is a slender book just packed and brimming with power.

Re: workshops, etc. We learn by writing, yes indeed, but we will grow like Marvell's "vegetable love" if we don't also get feedback from others, whether it's in a workshop or outside. I've never taken a workshop, but I've been blessed with good friends who will give critical reads.

IF YOU WANT TO WRITE by Brenda Ueland was the only writing book to lead me to epiphany. She is especially good for beginners, although I wasn't a beginner when I read her. Or should I say, I was a beginner. I was starting all over again. It's not just about writing, but also about the writing life, the life of music and art, the life of the spirit. What it means to love what you're doing. Embracing life. She talks a lot about Van Gogh and William Blake. Some may find her an odd old bird (she died in her 90s) but I think she was divine.

I glanced through some of the posts here on writing workshops. I've been on both sides of the table on that. I've had good and bad experiences on both sides of the table, too. At BGSU where I teach, we do have workshop classes. When I teach a workshop, I try very hard to make sure everybody has a voice, that students receive positive reinforcement and good critical responses. Like any method of teaching, it is only as good as the participants make it. Sometimes a clash of personalities or a lazy teacher or a closed teacher makes the experience intolerable. But on the whole, I think it does work as long as ground rules are set at the beginning, as long as students understand that they are not writing to please the group and only need to make changes that make sense to them, as long as the teacher uses her experience to guide the discussion in fruitful ways, and as long as people are dedicated.

I've probably read "all" the writing books.

I agree with whoever said it can't be taught, so I prefer to read the Paris Review Interviews...Writers at Work series. Delving into the psyches of people who write, one realizes they have much, and little, in common.

Most of the books on writing I find blustery and egotistical. One I did like was Rita Mae Brown's "Starting from Scratch", which rarely gets mentioned. Her greatest suggestion is to learn Latin.

#47, I think we share tastes. I liked Dillard's book, and if I had to choose just *one*, I guess it'd be "Becoming a Writer" by Dorothea Brande. It was written in 1934, and is unusual in that it's not about nuts and bolts, but about cultivating the artistic temperment, subconscious, etc. Lovely book!

I found About Writing by Samuel Delany to be very helpful. It is written in language that I naturally take to, as opposed to more pop-psych or motivational language. The advice about novels has been invaluable as I struggle with writing my first.

For inspiring books on writing, I love Terry Brooks's Sometimes the Magic Works: Lessons from a Writing Life - it makes me immediately want to go write. It is geared a bit more toward us fantasy writers, though.

skiegazer3 - I'm amused by the similarity of our names and the fact that I'm just getting into my grad program for poetry. Fiction is my first love, but I write poetry also and I wanted to stay in the workshop/literary scene, thus the MFA in poetry. As for workshops, you should have been in my undergrad workshops - they were a lot like what you had with your friend. And we were not nice (sometimes tactful, but not nice) - horrible for the ego, but great for poems.

for CLiffBurns:
say your May 26 entry but haven't located Writing 101 on Beautiful Desolation--can you provide a current link? Sounds very interesting and relevant. Thanks

Ernest Hemingway On Writing; and the long story 92 Days by the late great Larry Brown. It's fiction, but it shows the hard road to getting published. Damn good story.

"Zen in the Art of Writing" by Ray Bradbury
"On Writing" by Stephen King
"The Art of Dramatic Writing" by Lajos Egri
"The Spooky Art" by Norman Mailer

Another vote for On Writing by Stephen King and The Art of Fiction by John Gardner. I'm also a big fan of The War of Art by Stephen Pressfield. A recent favorite is Making Shapely Fiction by Jerome Stern.

It's not cheerful but Hamsun's Hunger will help put things into perspective. It also manages to be strangely funny.

The Hamsun book is STAGGERING. My stomach actually growled in sympathy at various points in the narrative. A companion volume might be Paul Auster's THE ART OF HUNGER. Essays about writing, writers and the writer's life. Or (needless to say) Kafka's THE HUNGER ARTIST. Great stuff, put it on the Christmas list for your favorite depressive scribe...

Here are some books I like for writing.

"Chapter after Chapter" and "Page after Page" by Heather Sellers.
They are both very intense and have exercises to help curb anxiety and just get you to write.

"On Writing" By Stephen King. I find that one is one of the best. I know it is because I go back to it.

"No Plot, No Problem" I had to add that one. It really freed me from my anxiety about writing.

I wasn't crazy about "Bird by Bird" I felt it was very general. I was so desperate to write like this person because they were published and well known. I bought one of her books. I put it down after 30 pages. It just didn't interest me. Sorry to be the stick in the wheel, but sometimes, one must disagree and do their own thing even if the person has more experience then you.

Also I found my workshops to be helpful. Especially the poetry workshop. I learned to edit with that one. And I find a writing circle helpful. The people in my group are critical of work, but aren't mean. I like that.

I wasn't crazy about Bird by Bird, either.

I own a lot of the books that are listed as "Touchstones", and I must admit my favorite are:

Writing Down the Bones
Forest for the Trees

The Opposite of Fate: Memoir of A Writer's Life by Amy Tan and On Writing by Stephen King.

Has anyone here read A WRITER'S JOURNEY by Christopher Vogler? I note it seems to be a well-regarded text in some quarters but no one on this thread has cited it yet. Can anyone give an opinion, pro or con re: A WRITER'S JOURNEY?

I'll also recommend Annie Dillard's The Writing Life

It's just wonderful.

Annie Dillard's magic, pure magic. Every sentence imbued with grace. I agree, she's terrific and anyone who puts pen to paper for the purposes of communicating experience should read her work.

I loved The Writing Life years ago, but I never reread it because of my overwhelming tendency to ape her style. (And you can just imagine how successful that was, since no one can really write like Dillard except Dillard.) Ever have that problem--read Austen and start writing in long convoluted sentences with lots of dependent clauses, or Hemingway and have the opposite happen?

And I'm so glad someone finally mentioned The War of Art, #66/nmelcher. Such a rallying cry, but still a voice of reason.

Xiguli, War of Art was the first book my first professor had us read in my Creative Writing MFA program. It changed my life. :)

I wasn't thrilled with Bird by Bird either but I really enjoyed King's On Writing.
I mooched The War of Art and hope to read it next week.
Now back to NaNo!

After a euphoria-addled library binge this week, I've acquired far too many things to read. One of them is David Mamet's 3 Uses of the Knife: On the Nature and Purpose of Drama. I'm 29 pages in and have already found an embarassing number of quotes to mull thoughtfully over. It's not as easy breezy as some writing books (War of Art and Writing Down the Bones come to mind), but a tough, delicious nut to chew on.

"The problem play is a melodrama cleansed of invention. Its stated question, 'How do we cure spousal abuse, AIDS, deafness, religious or racial intolerance?' allows the viewer to indulge in a fantasy of power: 'I see the options presented, and I decide (with the author) which is correct. Were *I* in the place of those upon the stage, *I* would make the correct choice. And I would vote with the hero or heroine, rather than with the villain.'" (p15) (Later, he compares this reality of theatrical drama to political drama in a startlingly apt way.)

He defines things provokingly and pithily.
- "Myth, religion, and tragedy...awaken awe. They do not deny our powerlessness, but through its avowal they free us of the burden of its repression." (15)
- "Romance celebrates the inevitable salvation/triumph of the individual over (or through the actions of) the gods--such triumph due, finally, not even to exertion, but to some inherent (if unexpected) excellence on the part of the protagonist."
- "Tragedy celebrates the individual's subjugation and thus his or her release from the burden of repression and its attendant anxiety ('when remedy is exhausted, so is grief')."
- "The theater is about the hero journey, the hero and the heroine are those people who do not give in to temptation. The hero story is about a person undergoing a test that he or she didn't choose." (16)

And I hope I'm not droning on for too long, but I just wanted to share what feels like a discovery to me. A book that can make me think beyond the act of stringing words together to the substance beneath them is sort of thrilling. One last quote - verging on maddening, but convincingly argued thus far -

"But the purpose of art is not to change but to delight. I don't think its purpose is to enlighten us. I don't think it's to change us. I don't think it's to teach us.
The purpose of art is to delight us: certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that." (27)

I've coveted that Mamet book for some time--really must get to Amazon and secure my own copy.

Those are terrific quotes--your "book of commonplace" must be overflowing.

One story about Mamet I loved: at the funeral after his father died, Mamet took off his coat, seized a shovel and buried his father HIMSELF. Now that says something about the man, his intensity, his sense of duty and honour.

Thanks for the quotes, they're great...

Stay away from the Christopher Vogler's A WRITER'S JOURNAL (mentioned in Message #72). I had my local library bring it in for me and it's dreadful, warmed over Joseph Campbell from a man who was once script editor on "The Lion King" or something. Avoid this one like a plague-carrier, folks...

"CliffBurns" --

"'What's important, finally, is that you create, and that those
creations define for you what matters most, that which cannot
be extinguished even in the face of silence, solitude and
rejection.'

"Now THOSE are what I call words of wisdom. I highly recommend this book."

That's the sort of advice I needed as a relative beginner, during the early 1970s. I moved on ages ago from needing hand-holding -- beyond knowing that stuff by heart, I could write my own version of it from experience.

From experience, as well, I recognize that "inspiration" is 99 per cent being there when the "inspiration" happens. And that "talent" is simply an ability developed -- by constant appplication of the ability -- into a skill greater than the average, greater than the most who don't do that.

Moved on to writers who write about writing, about the process of writing, with which I can identify and from which glean encouragement, without the egotism, the self-centeredness which is source and cause of unnecessary static-frustration for those who fail to separate writing, on one hand, and the ambition for publication (and money and fame), on the other. Both must be kept separate.

That is, of course, if one is about the "superior" ego-conceit of creating "art".

Moved on to those who focus wholly and exclusively on writing, without a whiff of mention of a writer being in the room with the writing.

Do one's best. Then find a publisher with whom, or a publication in which, one's "unique" piece of writing will fit -- that being the opposite of writing "for the market". (And, as one can never know enough, and cannot know it all, there is useful practical advice in such as "Writer's Digest," though I've not read it in ages.)

Two means by which to avoid writing: (1) be an editor, and or (2) teach ("creative") writing.

Ha! I've done both--worked as an editor, and taught. I'll add a third: if you want to write fiction, writing non-fiction is an excellent avoidance strategy.

It's easy to place non-fiction. There are so many places to sell it: newspapers, magazines, book publishers, internet sites. And it's so easy to justify: I can earn a good living writing journalism and non-fic books. I've just been offered a contract for a couple of short non-fic titles. But I've also just started a new novel, which will have to wait if I write the non-fic. Hmm.

Luckily, I have a choice as I have a husband who is a high earner. But I doubt that most writers are as lucky as I am, or as blase about turning down contracts.

I just read Steering the Craft by Ursula K. Le Guin which is unlike any other 'workshop' book I've ever read. Its main focus is on words (including grammar and punctuation) rather than plot and structure, and it uses more literary fiction as examples than I expected. (I think Tolkien may be the only genre writer mentioned.) It's a fascinating little book, and it is set up to be used either by individuals or by groups. Not generally being fond of a lot of literary fiction, I found it a little hard reading in places -- but overall, it is a good book to read, and it is short -- about 165 pages plus a bit of extra stuff at the end.

I have to disagree a bit on The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler. If you sit down and follow the book step-by-step, you are going to end up with a formulaic book, and you don't want to do that. However, if you are not familiar with Joseph Campbell's work, or if all you have read of his is the popular Hero with a Thousand Faces, then this book is an interesting introduction to the idea of archetypes and the roles they can play in storytelling. It also covers some aspects of storyline movement, from the popular three-act system to a slightly more complex look into the circle feature of a story.

It is not a good book to follow (at least not more than once!) as a blueprint for story writing, but it does offer some interesting ideas. It's also (because of the Campbell influence) aimed at the mythic aspects of storytelling. If you are writing an epic fantasy, it might be worth reading once, because in that respect it is a treasure-trove of odd little ideas. Even outside of epic fantasy it can give you some interesting ideas -- almost all stories are quests of one type or another, after all.

Vogler is a 'movie' person, though, and you must take into account that books are far more complex than movies. I don't recommend it as the best writing book in the world, but I do think it's worth reading if you want to have a slightly different view on characters and storylines.

inspiration: A Moveable Feast by Hemingway.

How about New Grub Street by George Gissing? The perils of living your life in a world of hack writers, the demoralizing effect of writing for money vs. art.

An aesthetic and moral lesson, delivered with real venom...

I have always loved "Bird by Bird". I think it is one of the better books on the market. But you can also get a lot out of "The Writer's Way". There are two books by that title but you want S. Maitland.

I really enjoyed the "Art and Craft of Poetry".

If you have never written before at all and decide that a novel will be the first thing you ever do, try "So You Want to Write a Novel" but its really geared toward the late teens and early writers.

OH...I almost forgot..."A Mountain Man's Guide to Grammar". Funny and useful!

If you check the 'writing' tag on my profile, you'll see a book count of 453. I think I've spent too much time reading books on writing rather than actually writing.

I can find so many ways to procrastinate.

Having attended many courses, workshops etc., I'm convinced, as has been said by Cliff Burns and others, that publishable writing can't be taught - not just because of my own output but also from the other 'wannabes' in those courses. You can write or you can't.

God bless you for saying so.

Universities and colleges see creative writing programs as cash cows and they're churning out all these "graduates" who are then flooding the marketplace with their crappy, childish, puerile efforts. Writing is a calling, like the priesthood, and if you ain't got it, please, flip burgers, change bedpans, become a human cannonball but for Chrissakes stay away from a pen or keyboard...

Cliff,

A term I often use when discussing college creative writing programs is 'sausage machines'.

Graduates, if we ever get to read their books which is highly unlikely because they won't be published, just don't produce the original and creative (in the true sense of the word) writing that writers who learnt by the seat of their pants in earlier times.

Like so much these days -fiction, movies, fast food, cars etc. are so standardised they are simply boring. I find myself retreating to literature of the earlier parts of the 20th century, and before, for literary nourishment these days.

Beware, folks, of generalizations. God knows that Cliff and I are simpatico in most important regards (in spite of our differences in terms of what we write), but let's not blacken all college-trained creative writers with the same brush--some of those poor souls are there because they LOVE to write, they HAVE to write, and they're seeking channels through which they can learn important things about technique, style and (in some cases) basic grammar.

Agatha Christie was a 'sausage machine' (her own term, which I suspect Murmurs knows), and say what you like about her cardboard characters, her mild racism and her stilted dialogue--the woman came up with some of the wildest, most radical twists in the detective story up to that point (and even to the nowaday) that had ever been imagined, and is still a model for what the genre can be. True, her experience as an author backs up your point (I believe she wrote The Mysterious Affair at Styles as a dare, and without any training or education that would suit her for such a career), but I can name dozens of good writers that actually went through creative writing programs and survived not only unscathed but with better tools for the task ahead.

Is writing a calling? I imagine that it is--and I got mine after the planes hit the World Trade Center six years ago. I'd been writing all my life (as I imagine you all have) but I finally got serious about it after 9/11, and I suppose that you could call that my Road To Damascus moment. Had that horrible day gone differently, would I have ever submitted a story, had one accepted, finished a novel, been published? I simply don't know. I'm still flipping burgers, though--keeping body and soul together while I explore whatever possibilities my skill and dedication at writing give me--and I hope that I'm not one of those talentless dilettantes you guys are discussing, forcing my words upon a world that doesn't want nor need them...

I tend to give nascent writers the benefit of the doubt, even those scribblers who sign up for writing programs and workshops. They may be hoping for shortcuts, they may be joining, in effect, mutual masturbation sessions, they may be building delusions--but some of them actually LEARN, and the world is better for those rare gems that get belched out of the vulcanic bowels of the university system.

Nice meeting you, Murmurs (even though, goddamn you, you've got WAY more books than I do!)

John:

Always the voice of moderation and kindness and I appreciate that about you.

I didn't know that 9/11 had such a profound effect on your decision to write seriously. That was a rotten, terrible day.

You know what I believe: writers write and they don't need college courses, writing programs, groups, encouragement...just a goddamn pen and paper. Just write, man, everything else is excuses and bullshit. You know I'm not addressing you here, John, me lad, you've used up your quota of sweat and tears on behalf of the printed word. I suspect that even if the planes had stayed in the sky that day you'd still find some way to express yourself, it's an irrepressible urge, a calling, yes, and you heard yours, loud and clear...

The two books that inspiried me were The Altered I by Ursula K. Le Guin, which is a record of a science fiction writing workshop she taught at the first Australian World Science Fiction Convention - consisting of particpants' stories, plus her comments on them and on the workshop process - and Dream Makers by Charles Platt, short interviews with 30 or so SF writers active in 1980. Rather than any specific advice, what these books gave me was the sense that real human beings were writing stories with flaws and then working hard to fix those flaws, and that, if I worked at it, there was a chance I could do likewise.

Unfortunately, college writing programs have become more than a cash cow, they've become the gate through which a writer must pass before he/she is even considered as a serious, worthy to be published author. Agents & publishers all too often study a writer's resume before they take a peek at his submission. If there's no mention of creative writing courses or studied with "so& so" at Soybean U., the MS is DOA. Also it is at the universities where contacts are made, where the "I'll put in a good word with X & you include me in your Journal's next issue" are arranged. A whole world of "ins & outs" is now centered in academia. Gone are the days when all (or almost all) a writer needed to be published was talent. With so many people writing & so many MS submitted every hour, editors more or less welcome this "gateway" approach -it saves them time & money. If a few potential works of genious are tossed out with the slush, well, who said life was easy?

Marian:

I think that's a very realistic (and depressing) assessment of the situation re: writing classes. The "you scratch my back" mentality pervades such situations...and that's one of the reasons why I stopped submitting to magazines and anthologies. Anyone who thinks the submission process is fair and open and impartial is delusional. It's all about who you know and unless you have the contacts, all the talent in the world ain't going to get you past the front door...

Hey, I have an idea. Let's rename this thread "Posts on Writing That Depressed Me."

I did finally pick up Stephen King's On Writing because there were so many suggestions above--and I'm genuinely surprised by how much I liked it. The quality of his writing was much better than I expected (having been exposed to him only in that horrible fantasy novel Eyes of the Dragon many years ago) and I feel like I brought something worthwhile away from it, even if I can't break it down to bullet points. Maybe it's because he wasn't trying over-hard to be profound, just practical, and it's a nice change from most writing books.

I have been refreshing myself, though, with some quotes from Writers on Writing, such as W. Somerset Maugham's:

There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are.

If the only King you've been exposed to is Eyes of the Dragon, I STRONGLY suggest you pick up Danse Macabre, Misery, Cujo and The Shining at the earliest opportunity.

Just avoid The Tommyknockers and Dreamcatcher for now. Read them later, by all means, but start with the ones I mentioned. You'll thank me later.

No, John, not TOMMYKNOCKERS, not ever. The book is a structural disaster (I think even King has admitted as much), a terrible, misguided novel that puts the lie to the notion that Stephen King will EVER be taken seriously as a writer of stature.

I'll vouch for THE SHINING and 'SALEM'S LOT, though I haven't read them in twenty years. They're effective novels and SHINING shows the man had a true mean streak in the early stage of his career. Then he quit drugs and drinking and settled comfortably into the life of a rich, tenured hack.

Xiguli: I found King's ON WRITING to be a rehashing of things he's written in the past, a recapitulation of his accident, etc. To paraphrase a friend of mine, what Stephen King knows about fine writing would fit comfortably up the left nostril of your average bumblebee. I'll take FOREST FOR THE TREES any day. Practical, intelligent and earthy, a good book for writers, aspiring or professional...

I remember your dislike coming up earlier, Cliff, and being extensively discussed. Thought I'd add my two cents'.

Forest for the Trees was pretty great, too. Better, I think. More stuff to actually use, and I need to check it out again and re-read it. But, while reading On Writing I found myself interested in King's perspective. It's obviously not a book that's completely about writing, despite its title. But King simply has something unique to draw upon, in his large body of work. He's able to make extensive use of his own novels as examples of his points, and he's by no means always positive.

Something I found useful was his metaphor for storytelling as meticulous excavation, generally too delicate for "the writer's jackhammer," plotting. And I cherish this: "No matter how good you are, no matter how much experience you have, it's probably impossible to get the entire fossil out of the ground without a few breaks and losses."

I happen to find that a poignant reminder.

Like I said, the book is about topics other than writing--King's biography, for example. When I opened it up, I was ready to just glance at the biography part and then skip directly to what I was really interested in. But King did what he's apparently so good at sometimes--he got a hold on me. And even if I don't want to write like King (I don't want to write like anyone else), I sure as hell want to know how he does that. I thought he did a good job of attempting to let me in and figure some of it out.

Quite a few writing books I've (thankfully) forgotten the names of have struck me as worthless; this isn't one of them.

And John: I'm currently trying to have a sip here and there of an author or genre I'd normally shun, so I probably will give King a shot sometime soonishlike. Thanks for the suggestions. You too, Cliff. I'll likely go with The Shining.

I had read too much of the King bio material in other sources--ON WRITING seemed like a pastiche book, stuck together, made up of previously published material, stamped with ON WRITING and released as "new" work. I gained no insights from it but...so be it...

I wasn't looking for insights when I read On Writing, but I managed to get a few regardless--I love reading diatribes by writers I respect (even when I don't agree with them, which is a good thing considering how much I like Harlan Ellison) but it's always fascinating to hear about the writing process, the kinds of life that support such processes, and I even enjoyed King's rants against dialogue tags and adverbs. Those dissertations made me think about my own work in different ways, and though the changes I made and will make in my own fiction are minimal (I'm disgustingly satisfied with my own style, and would argue with Shakespeare if he told me to change it), it's never a bad thing to delve into a creator's mind.

That said, I much prefer Danse Macabre, when it comes to King's non-fiction. I've read it a dozen times.

Why is there always the assumption that every class is exactly the same, and that every new writer needs exactly the same things? You never know what will help someone until it is offered to them. They may even get the help they need in a class.

However, I do tend to tell people to be careful of taking college level writing courses. I've seen a number of people who took such courses and didn't write again for decades because the classes ruined their love of writing. People who want to write genres especially have to be careful -- too often, college level courses are aimed only at literary fiction, and while they can still learn some basic skills (if they need them), being forced to write stories that bore you is not a good way to learn about creativity.

I've had a number of high school students ask what they should take in college to help their writing career. I've told them two things -- find a profession that pays the best for the least amount of work and pursue it, because starving while you write is no fun at all -- and also take courses in everything that interests you, because those are the things you'll love to write about, and it will add to your basic knowledge. Everything you learn helps make you a better writer.

Writing classes and workshops serve only one possible purpose to me and that's making connections. If your creative writing instructor happens to be a published writer (not always the case--reminds me of the people who led a childbirth class Sherron and I attended, neither of whom had ever had a child), you might, under the right circumstances, get some help, a valuable assist in finding an agent or jumping the slush pile and landing directly on an editor's desk.

As to the actual value of the teaching, however...

Well obviously, Cliff, someone whose writing is as perfect as yours has nothing to learn from anyone else. For the rest of us mere mortals, however, a decent creative writing course might supply some helpful guidance.

#104: I don't understand the tone and thrust of this remark and so I'll let it go...

Your comment certainly lowered the tone of the discussion, Eruntane.

Beg pardon, I'm sure...

Having worked my way through a writing MA, I almost agree with Cliff....

It seems to me that what these courses do is accellerate writers through a few stages. So they don't get anywhere they wouldn't have got without it, they just get there a bit quicker. And, one hopes, acquire a bit of knowledge of the industry, and a handful of connections, in the process.

Whether one can teach creative writing or not: well, one can certainly teach the rules of it. But I don't think that anything truly great is going to come out of someone who has attended all the classes, and learned all the rules unless they have the talent and tenacity to go with it. I've seen far too much writing which bears the gloss of the creative writing course, but which has no depth at all. Give me raw, in-your-face talent any day.

(PS Hello, everyone. I'm new here. See you around!)

Jane:

Thanks for adding your voice--as you can see, this has been a protracted and at times heated discussion.

Appreciate your sharing your experience; I think we are simpatico on this point...

i've had both great and not-so-great writing class teachers, and no, i do not publish. I do, however, still enjoy writing. I also enjoy delving into a writers style, exploring every facet of how he or she writes when i find an author i enjoy. I've found that most writers who teach a writing class have at least something to offer, even if the end result is "don't take another course from that writer!"
I do agree that it's important to do your homework on the teacher you intend to spend valuable time with before taking the plunge, other than one day writing seminars. Most colleges that offer writing classes have at least some publications of the instructor's work: always at Least browse through these at the bookstore! i remember being too poor to buy books for class and finding the well-worn copy at the bookstore, i swear a group of us read those same books standing right there.
Secondly, if there is a sylabus, get a hold of that and see if you recognize any of the reading material or any of the authors you will be studying. If the instructor is unpublished, you may still find yourself in a wonderful class: much of this depends on the sylabus and the attitude of the instructor.
Finally, if you have an opportunity to talk with someone who's taken the class, jump on this.

and, as always, enjoy. we work too hard at too many other things to not enjoy writing.

anyway, my 2 cents. thanks for reading this far.

Good advice, tcw, not much to quibble with there. Thanks for posting...

Might as well add my dollar to Tammy Faye Baker...

Well, I've taken a couple of college writing courses at Radford University and I'm glad I did, even though I have decided to take everything I've learned and not use it. However, one important thing I did learn was to edit. And also, I think that these classes were good because neither of my teachers had any real connections to the writing world. They were both published at one time, but their books were out of print. Allthough, one of them was friends with Charles Fraiser who wrote Cold Mountain. But it's not like someone could write a book and pass on the word to him. My writing teacher wasn't like that.

I do agree though that there does seem to be this permeating MFA trail in publishing, atleast with poetry. And that bothers me because, I don't think you need an MFA to write and I don't think that a publisher should turn someone down for lack of one. I was reading Poets and Writers and there was only one person with just a B.S. degree. It just seemed wrong in my opinion. But then again if someone is good enough to be published, it shouldn't matter what education they've had, MFA or not.

#112: Your last line is absolutely bang on--it shouldn't matter what academic background you have, the quality of your writing should determine whether or not you're published. But too often it's who you know, what connections you have, that determine whether or not your work is given serious consideration by an over-stocked, over-worked editor...

You can call me Jess. : ).

I must say, even though the odds are stacked against writers now, I think that if you write something really different then other people, it'll stand out. Maybe it depends on which publisher you send it too also. If you're willing to go the small press route, then it's more likely that you'll be published. I have to be honest though, I would love to be published by some big publishing house, but I'm a poet so the odds of that are only after I die I think. lol.

Jss:

You're a poet? God help you. One of the most incestuous, inbred literary communities imaginable. I wish you all the luck--the markets are shrinking just as dramatically for poetry as they are short stories (a format for which I have a soft spot). The main thing is keep writing, keep growing as an artist. Some people draw comfort from Emily Dickinson's immortality as a poet--but she had to DIE to get famous. I hope and pray for your sake such a tactic won't be necessary in your case. Good fortune to you, my colleague...

Is it being suggested in this thread that the market is pretty much only looking to MFA earners when it comes to publishing fresh voices? If so, is that because the market sees the MFA as a necessary stepping stone in developing one's writing voice, or because more and more young writers are choosing the MFA as a stepping stone on their path? I wonder if it's more the latter, in which case the market isn't rewarding MFA earners just because they got an MFA; they're rewarding good writers who happened to feel getting their MFA is a good thing.

#116: The MFA programs don't often produce good, quality writing so I don't think editors, for the most part, limit themselves in that manner.

However, I do know that agents and editors often talent scout high profile programs like the Iowa Workshop and stay in touch with certain creative writing instructors/profs, who then funnel writers THEY LIKE their way. Not too many of these workshops produce innovative and ground-breaking prose stylists...and that isn't, repeat ISN'T what editors and agents are looking for. They more identify writers who will fit into "niche" markets or who show promise of commercial success.

No one, be it agents or editors, is looking for the next James Joyce or Samuel Beckett but they ARE seeking the next Donna Tartt, Jay McInierney, Tama Janowicz or Heidi Julavits. Creditable writers with at least the potential for broad appeal.

These workshops are a stepping stone but only for those who catch their instructor's eye (for various reasons, see: my essay "Writing 101" for further details).

Hope that helps clarify my views...

Cliff Burns,

Yes, that clarifies your views for me somewhat, but I also want to ask another question and say that I'm not attempting to be hostile, I'm just trying to understand.

Is your claim that "MFA programs don't often produce good, quality writing..." based on a first-hand experience, statistical data, or a hunch? I ask because, to me, that conclusion seems like an absolute based on opinion more than neutral information and as a result, becomes an oversimplification of a complex issue. The word "often," which could make this statement not be an absolute, actually turns it into an opinion, which makes me question the validity of the claim.

I agree that some agents and editors look to high-profile programs to produce high-potential writers. I also think some corporations and businesses look to high-profile business schools to produce high-potential executives. I think this approach is a natural success-driven model. Editors need good writers to sell magazines. Corporations need good execs to build business. Either way, they need good people to make good profit.

Of course, some writers don't need or feel they need a writing program and go it alone. Some of them are successful, and some of them aren't, just like those who do enter writing programs. I believe it's the same with my corporate example, and even with a sports analogy. Basketball recruiters do check out the street games for the next big player, but they spend most of their time checking out sanctioned games and that's not an un-smart move on their part.

All of that said, if the overwhelming majority of writers sending their work to agents and editors are those with an MFA, statistically it seems to me that demographic would see the most success in getting published. And that's because to me, while it's important who you know, if one can't write a good story, that story has little chance of getting published, MFA or no.

My two cents on the issue, and I'm not trying to be hostile, just understanding.

No offense or hostility detected in your remarks at all, Nathan, if it's okay to call you that. I'm Cliff--I never use anything but my real name. Some people hide behind their anonymity while on-line to say truly rotten things. I consider that craven.

Understand, I've been in the writing biz for a long time so I've had a wide array of experiences and associations. I know a number of folks who have attended the Iowa and Clarion workshops, done similar things at Banff and the Humber School of Writing. I also know wordsmiths who have taught college-level courses and workshops, even run programs. Candidly and off the record, many will admit that these jobs provide them with income to supplement their modest earnings as writers. They'll also tell you, after their third glass of wine, that the number of REALLY talented writers their programs have produced is relatively small and they (the instructor) have little to do with the success of said talents. Courses provide encouragement, support and community more than actually boosting an author's talent.

"If ya got it, ya got it and nothing I'll teach them will do much good if they haven't got the drive to create." I've heard that refrain more than once.

Again, it depends on what you're looking for. If you're the type of writer who needs support and thrives on being surrounded by other people afflicted with the writing bug, courses and workshops (though often very pricey) might be the way to go. If you're going to write regardless, practice your craft daily with discipline and perseverance, you're better off investing the money in a good laptop or upgrading your software.

Does this clarify?

I just finished William Zinsser's On Writing Well and loved it. I write fiction and poetry and didn't realize until after I started the book that it was for non-fiction. I continued on due to the writing and I'm glad that I did. In the end it peeked my interest in non-fiction and I have actually given it a try and plan to continue to.

Hugs!-Kat!

I'm reading Eric Maisel's A Writer's Paris right now, and it's wonderful. My writing's been kind of stalled lately, and I'm finding it very encouraging.

At the moment (senility is just around the corner, methinks), I can't remember the source, the author or the college, but a quote I read once went something like this:

A famous and successful author was giving an address to writing students at a university. The first thing he said when he reached the lectern was, "hands up those of you who want to be writers."

After everyone's hands were up, his second sentence was, "then why aren't you at home writing?"

Murmurs:

Couldn't agree more.

This sounds like something Mr. Rushdie would come up with. You can practically HEAR the whipcrack at the punchline.

This should be one of those "de-motivators" from the site "101 Reasons to Stop Writing" that we've been laughing about on another thread of this forum ("Does anyone here blog").

Thanks for this...

Geez Cliff,

I love the reasons on the "101 Reasons to Stop Writing" site. I hope that he finishes the other 84!

They were so simply funny and true, that I almost stopped writing. Almost.

LheaJLove:

If you can keep writing after poring over "101 Reasons...", welcome to the fraternity. It's only the self-conscious, insecure or, yes, wannabes who will be offended by great material like that. As in the case of the best examples of humour, it cuts awfully close to the bone at times.

If you get a good laugh from Sean's best bits, you're welcome to raise a glass with me and mine anywhere, any time...

Always a pleasure to hear from you.

A must have book for any serious writer is 78 reasons why your book may never be published and 14 reasons why it just might.

A no-nonsense book, Walsh rips any writer a 'new one' and lets us know in no uncertain terms what is required to be a published writer.

Walsh is a publisher (editor) and gives his take on very common mistakes. This is not a MFA in a box book but an 'after you have written it' book.

Truly a reality check!

Scary:

Sounds like a good tome. Gimme hard, practical advice over flighty, new age-y approaches to writing any day...

For any genre fiction, particularly mysteries, I recommend Don't Murder Your Mystery by Chris Roerden. Although she doesn't call herself a "book doctor," and, in fact, doesn't approve of the term, that's the way most people think of Roerden. This is a "how to fix the manuscript you've already written" book, not a "how to churn out a manuscript" book, and it's worth every penny. (Don't take it out of the library--you're going to want to mark it up.)

Adept:

Right, it's on my list...

Margaret Atwood wrote a great short story about writing that always inspires me, but I can't remember the name. I know, I'm useless.

Wow, it took me a while to read through the thread. Interesting thoughts on MFA programs. Two books that I find inspiring, which haven't been mentioned: One Writer's Beginnings by Eudora Welty and Margaret Atwood's Negotiating with the Dead. Rober Olen Butler's From Where you Dream is also quiet good. Because I enjoyed his pulitzer book A Good Scent from a Strange Mountain I took a chance on From Where You Dream and was impressed.

I'd say for INSPIRED me, probably To Kill a Mockingbird because reading it as a kid is the first time I think I ever imagined wanting to write a book. But for books on writing, I'd have to go with The Art of Fiction: Notes on Craft for Young Writers by John Gardner. It certainly inspires me to write my best. The chapter on plotting is amazing. And every time I read it I learn something new.

I'm not an MFA, but I do think there is a lot that can be learned about writing, whether through an MFA program or otherwise.

I know I'm repeating a few here, but these are my favorites:

Writing Down the Bones by Natalie Goldberg
Bird By Bird by Anne Lamott
Writing from the Heart by Nancy Slonim Aronie
Making a Literary Life by Carolyn See
The Forest for the Trees by Betsy Lerner
and
The Right to Write by Julia Cameron

I skimmed through this thread, looking for books that I know and love that haven't been previously mentioned. If you are looking for books to give you an idea when you have the urge to write but lack the idea, try these:

The Road to Somewhere: A Creative Writing Companion, edited by Robert Graham, Helen Newall, Heather Leach, John Singleton

From The Road to Somewhere:

"But writing is a practical craft as well as an art, and like all crafts, it can be learned, given time, effort and motivation."

"...creativity is made up of a range of skills, qualities, and practices. It is no longer useful to define creativity in a language that has lost its power and our thinking will be more meaningful and interesting, in my view, if we use a contemporary language: the language of mind, culture, learning and consciousness rather than that of muse, magic and spirit."

When the writing isn't going so well and you need a few laughs, please pick up Fondling Your Muse by John Warner.

The introduction to Fondling Your Muse includes two pages of "Words of Praise" followed by "More Words of Praise": "Not really helpful at all" - Tom Clancy; "After reading this book, I know what the caged bird will be crapping on" - Maya Angelou; "If you want a cake, you go to a baker. If you need a table, you hire a carpenter. If you want to learn how to write, you should buy someone else's book, preferably mine." - Anne Lamott

May your writing be fulfilling in the art of creating it. May those who not understand this desire go bother the Olympic committee to add cat's cradle to the amateur sporting circuit.

-AJK

SOME of the craft of writing can be taught--but talent, perseverance and courage are innate. If you don't have 'em, nobody can hand them to you and no amount of creative writing courses, self-help books or workshops will instill them.

That's the hard news many aspiring writers don't like to hear...

Before you waste a large part of your life writing novels and short stories as I have done:

"Most books disappear without a trace. Last month The Times published statistics from Nielsen Bookscan, which tracks book sales nationwide, showing that, of 200,000 books on sale last year, 190,000 titles sold fewer than 3,500 copies. More devastating still, of 85,933 new books, as many as 58,325 sold an average of just 18 copies. And things aren't much better over the pond: I read recently that, of the 1.2million titles sold in the United States in 2004, only 2 per cent sold more than 5,000 copies."

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/columnists/article3378297.ece

At least if you knit a jumper for a friend or relative, or do something similar, you'll have something that is seen in public and, hopefully, one person who appreciates your time and effort.

Those are mighty depressing numbers.

I write because I HAVE to. I'd write if I was the only person left in the world. Without a pen and pad (or keyboard) I'm as incomplete as a one-legged man.

Sales have never meant anything, money irrelevant but the act of putting pen to paper, closing the circuit, feeling inspiration spark a flint in my mind, aye, lad, there's nothing like it.

Although I sometimes wish I could knit as well as I write...don't suppose you need a wool jumper down there in Aussie-land?

"I write because I HAVE to. I'd write if I was the only person left in the world. Without a pen and pad (or keyboard) I'm as incomplete as a one-legged man."

I used to feel exactly the same, Cliff, but after fifty years of writing novels (all unpublished), plays (one produced at a senior high school - big deal!) and short stories (quite a few published in now obscure and/or deceased magazines), I've lost that 'HAVE to'.

I have actually knitted a couple of sweaters. ;-)

Well, think about all those excellent cooks out there. Where do their lovely prepared meals go? Do I really have to tell you? (Unless they publish a cookbook, of course.) There is still satisfaction in the process of cooking, though, especially if there is creativity involved.

As the chief cook, bottle-washer and child-bringer-upperer in my household, I'm with you on that one, ladygata.

Which leads me onto another path: I have 273 cookbooks in my library and I hardly use any of them these days. It's just so easy now to put a few words into Google and find the perfect recipe.

And another thought: as well as cookbooks, who needs most of the reference books we have around the house like dictionaries, gardening books, encyclopaedias etc when it's all available by pressing a couple of buttons on the laptop? And the 'Net info is probably more up-to-date, region-specific ...

273 cookbooks? Holy mackerel!

One of my favorites is a huge old coffee table book I bought off a friend dirt cheap, LES DINERS DE GAIA, recipes for exotic dishes by none other than Salvador Dali. It's completely mad, of course, cooked eels with beer and all sorts of surreal delicacies you'd have hard time feeding to a starving wolverine. Fascinating to look at though. Nope, I didn't think the touchstones would work for that one...

I also have 455 books on writing so you can see where my true interest lies!

I have asked my wife and kids to bury me with my books but my wife says no way is she going to pay for an Olympic pool-sized plot. ;-)

Hi everyone. I haven't been around for ages. Just can't keep up with all the internet groups I've joined. I feel a bit like an internet junkie, but it really is a grand tool.

Cliff, congrats on your movie deal. Very cool. I agree with you on a lot of things, including that great writing is a gift, but I have to say that I really love Christopher Vogler's The Writer's Journey. Maybe it's because I'm a huge Joseph Campbell fan. Maybe because, as a former editor, I always read introductions, and I understand Vogler's intent with the book. He's spot on that so many stories fail because they lack satisfying elements and/or structure. If I could keep only one writing book, that's the one I'd choose.

When I had a tape deck in my car, I listened to On Writing fairly often because it was read by Stephen King himself. His telling of childhood stories is really wonderful, and it's easy to cheer for the poor boy who makes it big. It's difficult to argue with his discipline, productivity, and success.

I used to have The Courage to Write by Ralph Keyes, but I must have loaned it to someone. I haven't thought about it in a long time, but remember feeling inspired by it whenever I picked it up.

Zodiacdeb:

Thanks for the congrats. I'll believe it when the film is actually in the theater. There's a place called "development hell" which is worse than purgatory.

I just found Vogler's book to be a ripoff of Campbell and dummied down into some kinda new age-y thing. My opinion only.

"I loaned it to someone"...and (presumably) didn't get it back. That's why I hate people asking to borrow stuff from my library. They practically have to leave a DNA sample and their first born child as collateral to get a book from my vice-like grasp. If you remember being inspired by the Keyes book, for heaven's sake snatch up another copy from Amazon, abebooks, eBay.

God knows, we need all the sources of inspiration we can get.

One of the things that becomes clearer and clearer to me with age is how differently we read depending on what's going on in our lives and where we have been. How we look at the world also has such a huge impact. When I read my YA books now, at 52, they're very different than I remember.

I think this is why almost equal numbers of people can love and hate a book. It's a wonderful thing when you think about it. How dreadful if we were all the same.

It should give us all hope as writers and authors. There will always be SOME people out there who love what we write.

...and thank God for that...

On the knitting/writing thing, I just want to say (and I AM a knitter) that it's the rare sweater that gets worn by even eighteen people.

>How dreadful if we were all the same.

And want to agree with Zodiacdeb on this.

Not exactly a mass of practical tips but the book that inspires me most to wrote just has to be Ginny Woolf's A Room of Ones Own

I'll do my breathing exercises, write my 300 words of warm up and then tell you that the book that helped the most is The Artists Way by Julia Cameron.

My own personal 12 step program.

I, too, love The Artist's Way. It has been many years since I worked my way through it, and I still practice morning pages and artist's dates. When something you read in a book is incorporated into your daily life, that's a good book!

I bought Vein of Gold, her follow-up book, but haven't worked it. Have you?

Oh, writing books...

I have a whole shelf of them, mostly because when I'm down in the dumps, I think it's nice to have a piece of inspiration by my side. I think not only what they tell you can be valuable but also the way that they write it.

Stephen King On Writing-Just raw, down to earth and inspiring.

Writing Down the Bones by Natalie Goldberg-One of my first writing books, I just looked at writing from a whole different angle and took away so much from this book.

The Writer's Way by Sara Maitland-Easy read with many exercises and ideas.

On Writing Well by William Zinesser-Well written, many examples of actual writing and honestly, I never thought about writing Non-fiction but wrote my first piece after reading this book.

The Elements of Style by Strunk and White-This was short and to the point on grammar and the such.

The Transitive Vampire by Karen Elizabeth Gordon-Easy to read, easy to understand, fun and with many examples.

And, believe it or not...

The Complete Idiots Guide to Writing Poetry by Nikki Moustaki- Easy to read, fun, many examples and exercises and overall, I found it inspiring. Some of my favorite written pieces of poetry came from doing exercise found in this book.

I have others that I've read and enjoyed- Turning Life into Fiction by Robin Hemley, Complete Idiots Guide to Writing Well by Laurie Rozakis, and Cause of Death: a Writers guide to Death, Murder and Forensic Medicine by Keith D. Wilson, M.D.

One book that I do NOT recommend: The Complete Idiots Guide to Writing a Novel by Thomas F. Monteleone- I got this book after the one on poetry which I totally loved. I thought that since I was trying for my first novel, maybe it could give some advice and just inspire and motivate me. This guy talks down to the reader and is just plan old cocky. I got tired of listening to how many books he sold and how good he was and found that until the end, where they do an interview with several well known writers, that there was little to nothing that he offered. No examples or exercises like the other books and I feel that it would be just hard to follow for anyone who is an complete "idiot". Lucky for me, I'm not. I returned the book the next day.

I think Story by Robert McKee is terrific. It's aimed at writing for film, but a lot of it applies equally well to stories and novels.

For writers newly getting into publishing (including self-publishing), Julie Ferguson's Book Magic: Turning Writers into Published Authors is good. Short, breezy, and to the point.

I just finished A Poetry Handbook by Mary Oliver, and I'd recommend it to anyone. I'm not a poet, but learned so much I will put to use in my novels.

Phyllis A. Whitney has a book titled, A Guide to Fiction Writing. It was so good, I copied it by hand into a spiral. At the time I didn't realize that it was the whole book until I finished it.

This thread looks somewhat dormant, but I figure it's worth a try anyhow. I have a 13-year-old cousin who has decided that she wants to be a writer when she grows up, so I think that a book on "how to write" would be a nice Christmas gift: something that will help her develop interesting characters and plots and dialog, something that is not too serious yet not too goofy, either. For example, Write Away looks OK, except she doesn't have any "exercises," which I think would be useful for a 7th grader. Stephen King's On Writing looks immensly interesting, but is perhaps more advanced (life-wise) than what I'm looking for. (I don't think she's really old enough to be worrying about how to make a living as a writer.) So, suggestions?

#156 I'd be very surprised if she didn't still find the Stephen King one an inspiration all the same. Not only is about half of it more of an autobiography (which she might find interesting anyway) but the great thing, to me, about this book is the sheer enthusiasm and love of the craft that come across. It's a light read, not too intimidating, and cuts out a lot of bullshit that comes up in so many of these books. You will need to make sure that your cousin's parents don't object to her having the book, I guess (King, in general, isn't considered by everyone to be suitable for 13 year olds). My own opinion on that question is that if kids are too young they just won't understand any 'adult' references and, if they do understand them, it's already too late to worry. Personally, I would rather have seen either of my kids at 13 reading Stephen King than clutching Paulo Coelho or Virginia Andrews.

It's a sad fact that there don't seem to be too many books around that are designed to encourage young writers at this ideal age. A book I have found both useful and readable is The Complete Handbook of Novel Writing - partly because, as well as practical advice, it also contains interviews and articles by well-known writers like Margaret Atwood, Tom Clancy, Elizabeth George, Joyce Carol Oates and John Updike, all of which reinforce the view that there is no 'right' way to write and everyone needs their own 'voice'. However, this is another book that is aimed at adults and whether it would appeal to a 13-year-old will depend very much on the 13-year-old concerned.

I hope you realise what a wonderful cousin you are to encourage your young relative in this way. When I was 13 all my relatives ever said about writing was 'well, you won't be able to earn a living doing that - you'll need a real job.' I'd have loved to have had you picking out my Christmas presents! Good luck in the hunt and also to your cousin in her writing future!

An awesome YA and children's writer (and librarian), Sarah Ellis, has two: From Reader to Writer: Teaching Writing Through Classic Children's Books, and The Young Writer's Companion.

I also really liked Pen on Fire: A Busy Woman's Guide to Igniting the Writer Within, by Barbara DeMarco-Barrett, which has a highly misleading title, in that the book really isn't specifically for women. Lots of short chapters and exercises.

Whatever you do, do not be mislead by The Art of Fiction: Notes on the Craft for Young Writers, by John Gardner. For one, it assumes at least an undergrad level of knowledge in Ancient literature and classics, and two, he's a pompous bore who deserves to be ignored.

Telling Lies For Fun and Profit by Lawrence Block is a great book on writing. Well, maybe not great, but I love it. Block writes gritty crime novels, and his writing about writing gets gritty, too. It's fun to read, if nothing else.

Block gave me permission to ignore the "You must write it all down from start to finish, no matter what, or else you'll never finish the story" school of thought. He says that it can be a good idea to go back and fix some typos that are annoying you or to gut the plot and start over if you've just had a terrific idea or you've thought up a great character who needs to get inserted a chapter back.

He doesn't think editing is a source of joy, and if you come up with a good, technically proficient story that pleases you with just a pass or two, more power to you.

The chapter in which he describes his thoughts on this is called "Washing Garbage." His focus is having a decent story finished on the page, not on the process.

Thanks for the suggestions. I had found The Art of Fiction in a bookstore the other day and even I couldn't get through reading the introduction so I figured it was a no-go :) Currently I think I am going to go with What if? but Amazon says I have several days to decide before their shipping deadline .....

I just finished 3 more books on writing.

Scene of the Crime: A writers guide to crime scene investigations- This was a fun and quick book that introduced me to a lot of info but at the same time, it was written back in the early 90's so while I'm sure that much of the info is still useful, I'm also sure that there have been some advances and changes. Overall it liked the book.

Self-Editing for Fiction Writers-This was a pretty good book also. I found it useful but did not feel that the "lessons" worked for me. It is a quick read of course.

Revision: A Creative Approach to Writing and Rewriting Fiction- This book is one of my favorite books on writing! It starts with revising before you even begin to write and works its way through. Quick, easy, and loaded with tons of examples, I found this book to be fun and informative from the start.

That's it for now on the terms of how to write though I did read "The transitive Vampire: A Handbook of Grammar for the Innocent, the Eager, and the Doomed" ...I still feel like I fall into "The Doomed" category. *sigh*

-Kat

I ordered myself a Xmas pressie that arrived today that looks good - The Pocket Muse. It's more encouraging sayings and odd tips than actual advice on how to write but I prefer those. I'll let you all know how it lives up to expectations this time next week.

#161 I have Scene of the Crime, and I love it. I've often wished there was a revised edition, because of the way the last case she refers to worked out. She's talking about blood-spatter evidence in a multiple murder which took place in my area. The evidence suggested that the husband had killed his wife and children, but there were multiple witnesses that said the wife had spoken several times about how depressed she was and how she and the children would be so much happier in heaven and other things that pointed to her being suicidal. The husband was assumed to be guilty because he wasn't showing "enough" sadness. He was fully acquited, and when some clueless reporter asked him if he was happy to be found not guilty, he said, "My wife and children are dead, how happy do you think I am?" It was a good situation of how the evidence does not necessarily reflect the truth.

Women and Writing, by Virginia Wolfe continues to inspire.

The Artist's Way, by Julia Cameron also always kicks me into gear...

I can now properly recommend The Pocket Muse and The Pocket Muse: Endless Inspiration. Not books on how to write but little gems jam-packed with tips and morsels of inspiration in the form of pictures, suggestions and non-sequiteurs to kick-start the imagination.

>Whatever you do, do not be mislead by The Art of Fiction: Notes on the Craft for Young Writers, by John Gardner. For one, it assumes at least an undergrad level of knowledge in Ancient literature and classics, and two, he's a pompous bore who deserves to be ignored.

Yikes! I guess I have to dip my toe in to disagree a little here. I was a history and psych major in college, who only took beyond the required freshman year great books class when they offered a Tolkein class my junior year, which I think I took pass-fail. Nonetheless, I have probably learned more about writing fiction from The Art of Fiction than from any other single book I've read. It isn't always easy reading, but I learn from it every time I look at it again, which is more often than I look at any other book.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't have two novels out and a third under contract if not for his chapter on plotting (chapter 7).

#116 - I know, it's probably me. Lots of famous authors swear by the book. But the only thing it inspired me to do is to hurl it across the room.

The Art of Fiction is both good and bad. It's one of the few writing books I hung onto after I culled the writing books from my library, but it is seriously marred by Gardner's ego and his dogmatism. His On Becoming a Novelist is better.

But if I were to answer the original question here, no book on "how to write" ever inspired me to write. What makes me want to write is reading writers on writing -- something like The Paris Review Interviews.

The Lonely Voice Frank O'Connor is a great book about short fiction.

One Writer's Beginnings by Eudora Welty is terrific.

Thirteen Ways of Looking for a Poem by Wendy Bishop, great for new poets.

The Triggering Town by Richard Hugo, a classic for poets, but also good for all kinds of writing

Immediate Fiction by Jerry Cleaver is great.
Emotional Structure by Peter Dunne is also great.
Sol Stein How to Grow a Novel and Stein on Writing also excellent.
My favorite of the year: The Third Act by Drew Yanno

Take it from the master of fiction himself. The art of fiction by Henry James is quite insightful. This is actually an essay he wrote and, if I remember right, it's about a dozen pages of pure gold.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Like Shaking Hands with God: A Conversation About Writing by Kurt Vonnegut and Lee Stringer on this thread.

There have also been many mentions of "The Art of Fiction" here but it is not always clear exactly which of the many "AoF" works that have been published was actually being recommended. I believe John Gardner's work was an intended reference, as was the "AoF" works by Henry James and W. Somerset Maugham. However, if I type the touchstone The Art of Fiction the work by David Lodge is added up above (actually it was already there) but I don't see him being specifically referenced in the thread text.

As someone that has read and own a lot of David Lodge's canon I personally would have selected that particular "AoF" over the aforementioned ones plus quite a few that aren't mentioned here (such as Ayn Rand's "AoF"). BTW, that's not a recommendation; because I haven't read any of them. But having read all those authors my intuition tells me that Lodge's would be the most useful.

Finally, I fully concur with Cliff's contention that writing talent, or talent of any other kind, cannot be taught per se, although the general craft of writing can. And as important as genuine creativity is, it doesn't amount to anything WRT becoming a successful published author if that person doesn't also possess in spades the necessary inherent qualities of commitment, tenacity and courage that are also required. Unfortunately, luck is probably the single most important factor to becoming a New York Times best-selling author, and that is neither an innate quality nor one that can be taught or learnt!

From Elfland to Poughkeepsie by Ursula Le Guin. Very short, very good.

Writing Creative Nonfiction, by Theordore A. Rees Cheney. It changed my life.

Sounds interesting, but I found no reviews for it here in LT. Care to write one?

ETA: He also seems to have the same last name as you -- Coincidence?
The book has to be listed in your Catalog in order to write the review.

And Welcome to LibraryThing! I see you joined just yesterday.

Some perennial favorites:

* 13 Ways of Looking at the Novel by Jane Smiley
* Beginnings, Middles & Ends by Nancy Kress
* Character, Emotion & Viewpoint by Nancy Kress
* From Where You Dream by Robert Olen Butler
* Lights! Camera! Fiction! by Alfie Thompson
* Self-Editing for Fiction Writers by Rennie Browne and Dave King
* The Elements of Style by William Strunk Jr. and E.B. White
* The Soul Tells a Story by Vinita Hampton Wright
* Write Away by Elizabeth George
* Write Tight by William Brohaugh

I'm currently reading The Frugal Book Promoter by Carolyn Howard-Johnson and finding it helpful.

It's a pity almost all books about writing are aimed at fiction authors. There are very few for non-fiction writers and those that exist concentrate as much on the task or publishing and promoting the book as on the creative side.

#177 - you know what's funny - I always feel all the query and proposal information is aimed at NONFICTION and I grumble about that!

I also recommend a book called Let The Crazy Child Write. Helpful advice and lots of encouragement.

I like John Irving's line from, I think, "Garp." The line is "everything applies." So when you're writing a novel, suddenly all kinds of disparate news items or visual details you might up seem to be asking for inclusion in the book you're writing.

How about John Irving in "Garp," who says "everything apples." When you're really humming along as a writer, and the characters and story are taking hold, then news items, ephemera, visual details often beg for inclusion in your novel.

The two books I have found most helpful are Elizabeth George's WRITE AWAY and Francine Prose's READING LIKE A WRITER. There was also a recent New Yorker article on Ian McEwan that had some outstanding insights.

@lewweinstein: Yes, those are to my favorites too.

My Three Stooges, Tom Wolfe. Letters of Margaret Mitchell. MCN and Einsider interview of Vincent Gallo. Zen in the Art of Writing, Ray Bradbury.

There was an interview with Elmore Leonard on Charlie Rose recently. It mentioned his 10 rules of writing. They were publish in the NYT at http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/16/arts/writers-writing-easy-adverbs-exclamation-...

He also mentioned that he was asked to review a Tom Clancy novel. When he found out it was 460 pages long he sent it back and said he didn't read books over 300 pages.

I picked up Rita Mae Brown's writing book Starting from Scratch the other weekend, and it's interesting but off-putting in places. In one chapter she declared that no one could be considered a writer who didn't know Latin thoroughly because you couldn't have a proper appreciation for English. She actually advised taking courses in Latin before you started writing. I suspect she's of the "Writer as a Higher Calling" school of thought.

I skipped her nutrition and exercise chapter because I get that from my husband and doctor.

I wonder if Rita Mae Brown knows Anglo-Saxon also considered by some (mostly Dons) to be essential for expertise in English.
I once saw am interview with Anthony Burgess who said that he didn't consider anyone literate unless they had read Proust in the original.
And, of course, according to Jonson, Shakespeare had "small Latin and less Greek" (the state of his French is unknown).

#186

My fault, she actually did say you should take a course in Anglo Saxon after you finish your Latin studies.

Norman French would no doubt help one through the Chaucerian age and as my old Gran used to say; a little Sanskrit never did no one no 'arm.

I am regretting buying Rita Mae Brown's writing book. It's much more a "here are some essays on how elements of writing reflect my personal takes on politics and sociology" rather than "I have some felicity with writing, let me share some ideas and techniques."

The section on the passive voice turned into an article on how the government uses the passive voice to try to put things over on you and how the tense is a way to avoid taking responsibility for things.

The section on dialogue turned into a discussesion of class, with upper class people using longer, Latinate words, lower class people use more vivid Anglo Saxon, and middle class people are bland.

Through it all we get several instance where I get the feeling of "Southern people are more authentic and sympathetic than Northerners," something I've seen reflected in movies with the plucky Southern farm folk just trying to make a living against floods and storms and oppressors, etc.

I have to admit, I'm a Northerner, though not by much, geographically. To her credit, Brown admits her biases, but it turns the book into a memoir/Here's how I write rather than a Here are some ideas that might help you write better.

Her discussion on class seems more relevant to the UK than the US and even in the UK this is getting somewhat dated. It seems to me (perhaps because I'm getting older) that dialect is more differentiated by age than class.
Given how Southern dialect originates from a melange of SW English, Irish and Scots, perhaps she should spend her time picking up some Gaelic?

Class issues are a hidden thing in American culture, but I can see that being a bigger thing in the South than the North. People like to pretend in America that there are no class barriers, but there are. Class is often defined by money, but not always.

Coming from the UK, class to me is a hereditary thing. Social mobility in the US has tended to erase the hereditary factor after a couple of generations. Looking at Forbes most people on the richest list have made their money rather than inherited it. Class in the UK is more often based on family and education than money the newly monied are looked down on as arrivistes.

The Novel Writers Toolkit
Writing a Romance Novel for Dummies (that's me - lol)
Writing Prose
The Practical Writer

and every book I can get my hands on my genres, historical and fantasy.

I've learned something, even if it's a tiny thing from every book I've read and always am grateful for the learning experience.

Pen on Fire actually felt like it lit a fire under me, although I saved the exercises for later and never did do them.

I enjoy reading books about writing, bios of authors and studying the craft. I've taken the classes, most which bogged me down in sentence structure and outlines which felt like formula writing.

I've given up 15 years of newspaper editing but still love to write. Maybe I'll find an audience through local (small) publishing sources. Or maybe not, who knows?

This is a great thread and I will look for some of the books recommended here.

Good evening. Just finished reading this entire thread (over a year in the making) for the first time. And I enjoyed the various takes on the subject. I feel uplifted tonight, and that's good.

This is my first post here on LT. But it fits for where I am in my life, on my writing.

I see 3 "areas" (I don't want to put anything into any kind of box or label, so I'm " " to suggest to take what is said as an adventure). Developing the writing skills, finding your voice and direction for writing, and then the hardest part of all.... growing yourself.

We all need some touchstones to recharge our senses and sense of connection.

It is worth it, because every writer, even a programmer, is capturing a piece of life.
Which is the real work of art, the writing or the author?

Have a good evening,

Barrie Jaeger

John W. Aldridge Talents and Technicians

http://www.librarything.com/work/70512/book/40873540

correction,

everything by John W. Aldridge.

Plotting and Writing Suspense Fiction by Patricia Highsmith
Raymond Chandler Speaking
The Practice of Writing by David Lodge

I'm reading Get Known before the Book Deal now, and it is a handy guide toward building the author platform. Chock-full of good advice and peppered with devil's advocacy.

I'm curious, Murmurs 138. How could you bear to keep writing novels and not publish at least one of them yourself?

And to Cliff, you may sneer at writing classes, but with a published author in charge they can turn an ignorant amateur into something approaching a professional writer.

I've sold more than 18 - do I pass?

oldstick.

#199 More than 18? Do you mean 19? (Sorry, I'm being facetious but I can't help wondering.)

>197 TheRavenking:
I think the third link was supposed to go here.

No one has mentioned Steering the Craft by Ursula K. LeGuin.

I also found the play Six Characters in Search of an Author by Luigi Pirandello helpful.

-Lisa Shapter

On Writing by Stephen King which has been mentioned.

And because I have my cynical, wicked, and dark moments A Reader's Manifesto: An Attack on the Growing Pretentiousness in American Literary Prose has helped me improve my writing craft more than any other book.

How to Write & Sell Your First Novel by Oscar Collier and Frances Spatz Leighton has a lot of good advice about character development and also inspiring success stories. Also, I think that's the book where I read the best bit of advice about conveying character that I've ever read: If you get stuck with a particular character and don't know what to write next, chase the character up a tree and throw things at him to see how he responds. Works for writer's block everytime.

I've just joined LibraryThing. This is my first post.
Books on writing by writers, that I have inspired me:
Body Parts by Hermione Lee
Reading for Writers by Francine Prose
Virginia Woolf diaries
Franz Kafka diaries
Reborn (Susan Sontag's early diaries edited by her son, David Rieff)
These are not all *strictly* about writing, but one way and another they have lit my writing fires.
Peajayar

Laraine Herring teaches creative writing in Arizona. I've had her as an instructor, and I like her books Writing Begins with Breath and Writing Warrior.

peajayar, I took liked the Francine Prose. (which I would link, but touchstone is giving me a different book.)

Following on the way upthread about how writers can keep writing without publishing (or turning to self-publishing), I have lots of stories by well-published and award-winning authors up on 1st Books: Stories of How Writers Get Started about the rewards of persistence. My own first, The Language of Light (also not touchstoning) was 10 years from word one to bookstore shelves. (But The Wednesday Sisters (touchstone works for it!) and my one coming in March, The Four Ms. Bradwells (also touchstoneing, though not even out ... hmmm...) were a lot quicker in the making. Fifty is a lot of years, but there is one story on 1st Books about a book that was 35 years in the making.

Really, you just have to keep dreaming the dream.

> 203:

"And because I have my cynical, wicked, and dark moments A Reader's Manifesto: An Attack on the Growing Pretentiousness in American Literary Prose has helped me improve my writing craft more than any other book."

I'll second that recommendation based on my having read the article in The Atlantic Monthly from which it sprang.

In addition, I don't see the need for your having to put recommending this work down to what you describe as being prompted from your "...cynical, wicked, and dark moments..." The work's merits need no such disclaimer, as they speak very well for their author and can easily be recognized as being what a very able and insightful writer could praise for having "...improve(d) my writing craft more than any other book."

In a similar vein to B.R. Myers brilliant work, I'd recommend (oops, again, as in #196 above) to you everything by John W. Aldridge, especially

http://www.librarything.com/work/70512

http://www.librarything.com/work/5949721

http://www.librarything.com/work/9818982

and an anthology which contains something from almost everything he published:

http://www.librarything.com/work/4269615

You won't be disappointed.

The Virginia Woolf Writers' Workshop was a fun one. Great for rainy days.

One of my longtime favorite books is Madeleine L'Engle's Walking on Water. It's focused on art and Christianity, but it has elements any writer can appreciate. She talks about "feeding the lake" -- how each writer or other artist does their bit and it all adds up and inspires someone else who adds their bit to the "lake" of creativity. She also talks about how we know things as children that we forget as grownups, and how we can be more powerful artists if we take time to remember. A mystical, magical book in some ways and down-to-earth in others.

On Writing by Stephen King.

A Heart to mend

Writing the Novel by Lawrence Block is my latest acquisition in my writing collection. I love Block's approach to writing, it's practical, a little cynical, and encourages you to step back from the "writing is an exalted thing" that I've found in some writing books. His advice is straightforward about what your level of expectation as to reward should be, and he always says "If this piece of advice doesn't work for you, by all means, don't use it." And for a genre writer, he's very reassuring because he freely admits that his talents lie in the suspense/mystery area, not in the mainstream bestseller area, and he's made a decent living out of doing what he knows he's good at instead of trying to be the writer he knows he's not.