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1timspalding
A blog, Dear Author, is running a poll which book-based social networking site you prefer. LibraryThing was in the lead by a lot, then someone got it to a bunch of Goodreads people and they're in the lead. We need to fight back.
Check it out here:
http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2009/01/15/social-networking-for-readers/
Check it out here:
http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2009/01/15/social-networking-for-readers/
4PhaedraB
Me, too. I take voting seriously. As a matter of fact, right now I'm wearing a t-shirt that says "My Vote Made History" :-D
5Bookmarque
Done and done. Take that Goodreads bastids.
7streamsong
Done. Our votes will get factored into who gets January ER books, right? ;-)
9timspalding
Yes We Can! ;)
10VictoriaPL
That blog comment about LT and indie authors was a bit harsh!
11maggie1944
I voted but I am not sure we necessarily want to win this contest. No controls; people can vote more than once depending on how many accounts they might have on the internet; and where's the Supreme Court going to come down on this vote?
RABBLE, rabble, and riff raff are voting, maybe.
RABBLE, rabble, and riff raff are voting, maybe.
12timspalding
I know. I wrote a long reply, then decided against it. Anyway, we're going to be releasing a member-giveaway feature next week. (Cat out of bag!) It's going to be somewhat separate, however. No, giving away ten copies of your Lulu book "Aardvark's Abacus" does not get you in front of Random house giving us pre-release copies of Toni Morrison's new book. Message: We are evil censors.
13timspalding
>11 maggie1944:
I'm sure they're IP protecting it. Which means AOL users get only a few votes. And, Lordy but ain't that the way the world should be?
I'm sure they're IP protecting it. Which means AOL users get only a few votes. And, Lordy but ain't that the way the world should be?
14DaynaRT
I tweeted about this the other day when I saw GoodReads' Twitter-er complaining about the poll being unfairly influenced by someone or another.
16lilithcat
> 1
A blog, Dear Author, is running a poll which book-based social networking site you prefer.
They must have changed the wording. When I looked at it, it asked which sites you participate in. Not at all the same thing. I expect there are many people who participate in more than one of those sites, but there seems not to be a place where one can say which of the sites one participates in one prefers.
A blog, Dear Author, is running a poll which book-based social networking site you prefer.
They must have changed the wording. When I looked at it, it asked which sites you participate in. Not at all the same thing. I expect there are many people who participate in more than one of those sites, but there seems not to be a place where one can say which of the sites one participates in one prefers.
17timspalding
>16 lilithcat:
Good point. A LOT of people are in multiple. The thing I hear a lot is that LT is for your library and GR is for waht you're reading now. We hope to change that soon.
If you want to spam someone, spam two people—me (but, look, I get a lot of email) and Chris (conceptDawg). We're working through collections, but, man, it's a slog, with a lot of coordination work between us. Still if members spam Chris, that can't hurt, right?
Good point. A LOT of people are in multiple. The thing I hear a lot is that LT is for your library and GR is for waht you're reading now. We hope to change that soon.
If you want to spam someone, spam two people—me (but, look, I get a lot of email) and Chris (conceptDawg). We're working through collections, but, man, it's a slog, with a lot of coordination work between us. Still if members spam Chris, that can't hurt, right?
20QueenOfDenmark
I voted and I commented (message 38 I think).
21staffordcastle
I've voted!
23jmnlman
22: that comment did make me chuckle considering my early reviewer books have been mostly from independent publishers.
24Heather19
I tried very hard not to rant and go over-the-top when I commented after I voted. (very, very hard). Very very very hard.
Seriously, indie publishers? WTH? Some of the digs at LT were just plain stupid.
And in my comment I made sure to mention that I *am* actually a member of Shelfari and GoodReads, but I never go to either of them because LT is so much better.
..... And every word of what I said was true. See that first paragraph I wrote? I held back any ranting and "we are better then you!" stuff. THAT was hard. lol
Seriously, indie publishers? WTH? Some of the digs at LT were just plain stupid.
And in my comment I made sure to mention that I *am* actually a member of Shelfari and GoodReads, but I never go to either of them because LT is so much better.
..... And every word of what I said was true. See that first paragraph I wrote? I held back any ranting and "we are better then you!" stuff. THAT was hard. lol
26Mr.Durick
I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to vote. My preference is not very well informed.
But when I got there, it asked me what sites I participated on. I participate on LibraryThing and was able honestly to mark that.
Robert
But when I got there, it asked me what sites I participated on. I participate on LibraryThing and was able honestly to mark that.
Robert
28Carnophile
I voted.
In your face, Goodreads! And Shelfari: See ya... Wouldn't wanna be ya!
Tim, when LT's inaugurated, don't be distracted if Roberts flubs the oath.
In your face, Goodreads! And Shelfari: See ya... Wouldn't wanna be ya!
Tim, when LT's inaugurated, don't be distracted if Roberts flubs the oath.
29ryn_books
I voted.
Didn't comment on the blog.
I was puzzled at the ER comment in post 37 about how things are kept 'private'. As I don't know the context (and he does sound personally bitter) I thought it best to leave well alone.
Didn't comment on the blog.
I was puzzled at the ER comment in post 37 about how things are kept 'private'. As I don't know the context (and he does sound personally bitter) I thought it best to leave well alone.
31rebeccanyc
Just voted and commented.
32readafew
only 21 votes behind goodreads now!
I suspect 'Brad' was an indie author that got shut down by users for self promotion.
I suspect 'Brad' was an indie author that got shut down by users for self promotion.
33staffordcastle
I think readafew has nailed it - that's certainly the feeling I got.
36kawika
I also voted. I was very tempted to comment about how GR doesn't allow for real customization of information on books (at least, they didn't when I tried them...all changes made through edit were global), but then just let it go. LT does a much better job with the information its members provide, IMNSHO.
37timspalding
I think we should avoid taking advantage and stay at exactly equal... just to show how silly these things are.
38DWWilkin
I voted just now, 13 behind, so to be equal must strong arm 13 more people.
How many users does good read have in comparison to the nearly 600,000 that LT has?
I suppose Tim, that this is your living so winning, or staying tied for first, will be a good thing for you, and for us providing incentive for new blood, and new revenue for Tim, so that the site stays up... (I am amazed that you can run this on $10 per year per account or $25 lifetime...)
How many users does good read have in comparison to the nearly 600,000 that LT has?
I suppose Tim, that this is your living so winning, or staying tied for first, will be a good thing for you, and for us providing incentive for new blood, and new revenue for Tim, so that the site stays up... (I am amazed that you can run this on $10 per year per account or $25 lifetime...)
47_Zoe_
The thing I hear a lot is that LT is for your library and GR is for waht you're reading now. We hope to change that soon.
I feel like I've been telling you this for years. You can already deal with what people are reading now, you just prefer to hide that capability away as much as possible and not do anything with the data you have.
I really think that just adding Date Read to one of the five default display styles could go a long way toward changing this perception of LT. Right now, a new user sees that this is a site for people who care about publication date rather than reading date, and figuring out how to deal with reading date in an easy and effective way requires more knowledge of the site than many people bother sticking around for.
(But yes, I voted for LT.)
I feel like I've been telling you this for years. You can already deal with what people are reading now, you just prefer to hide that capability away as much as possible and not do anything with the data you have.
I really think that just adding Date Read to one of the five default display styles could go a long way toward changing this perception of LT. Right now, a new user sees that this is a site for people who care about publication date rather than reading date, and figuring out how to deal with reading date in an easy and effective way requires more knowledge of the site than many people bother sticking around for.
(But yes, I voted for LT.)
49rsterling
RE the comparisons with GR (which I don't use, but I've poked around):
I love LT. I love that I can get accurate, library-quality data here. (I also love, incidentally, that LT is pretty democratic and that "everyone's a librarian," no special status required.) But I'm a nerd of sorts (not that there's anything wrong with that). Most people don't like complicated. So, in addition to giving more of a focus to currently reading (presumably through collections?), one thing that is key is making adding books really straightforward for those who want easy, while maintaining the quality. I've seen a lot of questions lately from new users frustrated with the fact that they can't add more than one book by an author at a time, or that they can't search multiple sources at once, etc. (not to mention the long-running complaints about not being able to add books in one click from the work page), or that generally they don't "get" the add books process. I don't know that you can get around all those things, or that you'd want to, but it suggests that *some* people are turned off by complicated. I'm not one of them, but it doesn't hurt to make defaults look and FEEL simple, even if there are more complicated operations behind them, and more complicated options that users who want to can tweak.
I love LT. I love that I can get accurate, library-quality data here. (I also love, incidentally, that LT is pretty democratic and that "everyone's a librarian," no special status required.) But I'm a nerd of sorts (not that there's anything wrong with that). Most people don't like complicated. So, in addition to giving more of a focus to currently reading (presumably through collections?), one thing that is key is making adding books really straightforward for those who want easy, while maintaining the quality. I've seen a lot of questions lately from new users frustrated with the fact that they can't add more than one book by an author at a time, or that they can't search multiple sources at once, etc. (not to mention the long-running complaints about not being able to add books in one click from the work page), or that generally they don't "get" the add books process. I don't know that you can get around all those things, or that you'd want to, but it suggests that *some* people are turned off by complicated. I'm not one of them, but it doesn't hurt to make defaults look and FEEL simple, even if there are more complicated operations behind them, and more complicated options that users who want to can tweak.
53MrAndrew
#47: There's a "date read" field? I am such a lousy student of LT's capabilities. Thanks for that, i've just edited my display style. Now I just need to update my library and delete all the tags i added for year-read.
55PortiaLong
My impression is the same (I don't use this field) - I imagine we would be AMAZED at how many books get read on New Year's Eve/Day - as I would imagine that many folks use the first/last day of the year as a default for entering year read.
56reading_fox
#53 - I'd keep your year read tags, they are a usefull count - something you can't do with the date fields.
#17 - PLEASE do somethign with the date fields it's a vast amount of data just waiting for a fun feature, who's reading /recently read the same books you are? etc etc.
#17 - PLEASE do somethign with the date fields it's a vast amount of data just waiting for a fun feature, who's reading /recently read the same books you are? etc etc.
57Booksloth
I voted (guess who for). We're ahead again right now but that's no reason for complacency.
58sarahemmm
LT now standing at 44%, GR at 33%.
Edited to correct speeling^H^H^H^Hnumbre mistaek - sorry, MrA!
Edited to correct speeling^H^H^H^Hnumbre mistaek - sorry, MrA!
59MrAndrew
wow, we're paying to stay ahead? That doesn't seem right.
ETA Thanks sarahemmm, i think... now my post doesn't make any sense. Oh well, nothing new there.
ETA Thanks sarahemmm, i think... now my post doesn't make any sense. Oh well, nothing new there.
60foggidawn
I voted, but since I've never even wanted to look at another book cataloging site, I didn't comment -- those of you who contrasted the three and pointed out LT's obvious superiority already did a great job!
61AnnaClaire
I voted, and in case nobody posted about it earlier (60 posts already and I'm at work) we seem to have snuck back into the lead.
62secret_elf
Voted, but hey, I'm Biased
63VictoriaPL
*hums softly We Are The Champions*
68DWWilkin
A few weeks ago, I saw another post that had mentioned goodreads and I vowed to go back and have a look. But I have been using LT since October and have my library here.
With this thread yesterday, I decided to finally take that look at the other site. And played with it a little.
We seem to be more interactive from the get go. Tagging is simple here, but adding books to shelves takes a lot more work and steps.
The presentation of a book page there seems prettier, but we can substitute out our covers very simply based on which edition of the book we have.
Forums abound here, and keeping track of discussions seems easier.
Both have links to distributors, though they seem more in your face at goodreads. What revenue stream does a book site such as these get when you spend $10 on books from a link, twenty cents? Does it add up to real money every day? (Are there a few thousand purchases made from the sites pages each day?)
Here we can assign a rating of 0 to 10 with every half star, GR it is 0 to 5 for they use full stars.
Is there a thread where the differences are more fully discussed?
LT is now 50 votes behind again
With this thread yesterday, I decided to finally take that look at the other site. And played with it a little.
We seem to be more interactive from the get go. Tagging is simple here, but adding books to shelves takes a lot more work and steps.
The presentation of a book page there seems prettier, but we can substitute out our covers very simply based on which edition of the book we have.
Forums abound here, and keeping track of discussions seems easier.
Both have links to distributors, though they seem more in your face at goodreads. What revenue stream does a book site such as these get when you spend $10 on books from a link, twenty cents? Does it add up to real money every day? (Are there a few thousand purchases made from the sites pages each day?)
Here we can assign a rating of 0 to 10 with every half star, GR it is 0 to 5 for they use full stars.
Is there a thread where the differences are more fully discussed?
LT is now 50 votes behind again
69QueenOfDenmark
I just took the Good Reads tour out of curiosity and got hit by a pop-up almost as soon as it started, congratulating me on being the so-many-somethinging visitor to the site and asking me to click on the pop-up.
I hate those pop-ups. If LT had done that to me I never would have joined and if LT started to have them I would have to leave, they just annoy me too much.
Good Reads were also still ahead.
I hate those pop-ups. If LT had done that to me I never would have joined and if LT started to have them I would have to leave, they just annoy me too much.
Good Reads were also still ahead.
70riverwillow
I voted and commented, really can't understand why Good Reads is ahead of Library Thing as when I visited it was so uninspiring...
71Carnophile
As of this writing Goodreads is up by 93 votes.
73DWWilkin
According to there stats they have 3 times as many members as LT, so if LT does much better than a 1/3 of what they get voting wise, LT has a better return.
Tempted to point that out on the blog comments.
Tempted to point that out on the blog comments.
75timspalding
>73 DWWilkin:
Members are nonsense. Shelfari has more members than LibraryThing, but we did some statistical analysis once on their members--they're almost all from the email spamming thing, and have no books. They also record the last-visit data and the vast, vast majority were last there the same day they signed up. Also in fact, Shelfari members have more friends per capita than books.
Goodreads is in between LT and Shelfari in that respect. They have lots of real members, but also quite a few who sign and leave. Goodreads does more of that email harvesting than LT and much of the site is off-limits unless you're a member, so people sign up. In terms of traffic they're about equal (See Compete.com for example, although that doesn't count the foreign traffic to LT). In terms of participation/member LT is way ahead.
Tim
Members are nonsense. Shelfari has more members than LibraryThing, but we did some statistical analysis once on their members--they're almost all from the email spamming thing, and have no books. They also record the last-visit data and the vast, vast majority were last there the same day they signed up. Also in fact, Shelfari members have more friends per capita than books.
Goodreads is in between LT and Shelfari in that respect. They have lots of real members, but also quite a few who sign and leave. Goodreads does more of that email harvesting than LT and much of the site is off-limits unless you're a member, so people sign up. In terms of traffic they're about equal (See Compete.com for example, although that doesn't count the foreign traffic to LT). In terms of participation/member LT is way ahead.
Tim
76DanoWins
The way I picture the 3 sites is this:
Shelfari is just a toy...A novelty.
Goodreads seems to be for those who like to read, but also want to pretend like they are hip and web-cool.
LT is for the refined, cultured folks that are already comfortable with who they are and what they want out of a book-related site.
Shelfari is just a toy...A novelty.
Goodreads seems to be for those who like to read, but also want to pretend like they are hip and web-cool.
LT is for the refined, cultured folks that are already comfortable with who they are and what they want out of a book-related site.
78DanoWins
MerryMary,
I was also including myself in that refined, cultured, sophisticated type :-)
Or at least hoping to.
I was also including myself in that refined, cultured, sophisticated type :-)
Or at least hoping to.
79timspalding
>76 DanoWins:
I thought it was LibraryThing was for hip and web-cool people who are SO hip and web-cool they don't need to show it off. Yeah, that's me. Also I'm buff.
I thought it was LibraryThing was for hip and web-cool people who are SO hip and web-cool they don't need to show it off. Yeah, that's me. Also I'm buff.
81oregonobsessionz
I voted (for LT of course). LT has 45% or 640 votes, GoodReads has 42% or 600 votes.
82staffordcastle
I voted from home - previously voted from work ;-)
LT 650, GR 600
LT 650, GR 600
83NorthernStar
I voted - LT 650 (45%) to GR 600 (41%)
86onyx95
I voted and wish it would let me again!
Library Thing (45%, 663 Votes)
GoodReads (41%, 603 Votes)
No, I don't participate at those sites (13%, 192 Votes)
Shelfari (7%, 103 Votes)
Other (3%, 43 Votes)
I think Brad had a different effect to what he wanted.
Library Thing (45%, 663 Votes)
GoodReads (41%, 603 Votes)
No, I don't participate at those sites (13%, 192 Votes)
Shelfari (7%, 103 Votes)
Other (3%, 43 Votes)
I think Brad had a different effect to what he wanted.
88DWWilkin
Now Gr is ahead again, with 703 votes, an instant 100 votes in 30 minutes at the dead time of night?
Can the polling system be rigged?
What does not being the winner of this poll mean in the big scheme of things?
Can the polling system be rigged?
What does not being the winner of this poll mean in the big scheme of things?
89LordNigelKnickKnack
Just put in my vote for LibraryThing.
Current totals:
GR: 703
LT: 666
Going to get some Holy Water!
Current totals:
GR: 703
LT: 666
Going to get some Holy Water!
90lkernagh
F.Y.I. I was surprised to discover tonight when I went for a 'lookie-loo' at the site, I surprised to discover that I could actually vote again. I ran a quick test and it appears that all you have to do is close your internet browser and then re-open it between votes, you can vote as many times as you like.
Kind of defeats the purpose of any accurate statistical survey. Just thought everyone should know.
Kind of defeats the purpose of any accurate statistical survey. Just thought everyone should know.
91AndrewB
90> your browser must be clearing cookies when you close it, as the poll is keeping track of whether you've voted or not that way. Normally, most polls would only allow one vote per IP address, which isn't perfect - but requires only slightly more effort to get around.
92Lman
Well, it ain't tracking fairly - you can vote again and again through different browsers too - so far I added three extra votes tonight - and we are still behind!! :(
Frankly, as I have successfully voted five times now - I don't think we should worry all that much about the result - IMHO it is not a fair indication of true membership, or social networking usage!
ETA: although it could be an indication of our need to WIN!!!
I say - vote often, vote lots!
Frankly, as I have successfully voted five times now - I don't think we should worry all that much about the result - IMHO it is not a fair indication of true membership, or social networking usage!
ETA: although it could be an indication of our need to WIN!!!
I say - vote often, vote lots!
93AndrewB
92> Yep, each browser stores it's own cookies. The poll script they're using is bad - if you block cookies for that site, it should detect that it cant successfully determine whether you've voted or not and shouldn't allow any votes. As such, you can vote, reload the page and vote again, rinse and repeat. :\
95MarthaJeanne
I've looked very briefly at the other two contenders, and they really do seem to be social-networking sites, with a book aspect. LT is a book site with a social-networking aspect. I care more about the books, so I'm here. Yes, I network here, but it is still mostly about the books, with networking just the cherry on top.
98DaynaRT
I can dismiss it. It's horrible for cataloging. The one thing it has going for it is the currently reading feature.
99klarusu
I up-stuck and voted. Nobody messes with LT on my watch ... mwa-ha-ha! (That's an approximation of an maniacal laugh ... it's been one of those days!)
100_Zoe_
It's true that I would never use GR for cataloguing. But at the same time, I've considered trying to get my friends to use GR rather than LT, because they don't care about cataloguing and I want to follow what they're reading. It's not just about the currently reading feature itself, it's the whole attitude about whether what people are reading is important (GR: yes. LT: no). Even when LT introduces a collections-based currently reading feature, I think GR will still be far ahead for keeping track of what people read because that's integrated into their whole system, rather than being an add-on separate feature that people may or may not use. GR makes it easy to keep track of what you've read; LT makes it as hard as possible, and, more importantly, rejects in principle any suggestion that it might be important.
Tim often says that the difference between LT and Shelfari is that the LT people actually care about books and the Shelfari people only care about money. That's sort of what it feels like when it comes to tracking reading: the GR people actually believe that sharing what you're reading matters, whereas the LT people are willing to tack on a currently-reading feature because they think it might have some mass appeal, but they're not actually committed to the concept at all.
So anyway, I don't deny that LT is great for the hardcore cataloguer. It's just too bad that most of my friends aren't hardcore cataloguers. And that leaves me with GR.
Tim often says that the difference between LT and Shelfari is that the LT people actually care about books and the Shelfari people only care about money. That's sort of what it feels like when it comes to tracking reading: the GR people actually believe that sharing what you're reading matters, whereas the LT people are willing to tack on a currently-reading feature because they think it might have some mass appeal, but they're not actually committed to the concept at all.
So anyway, I don't deny that LT is great for the hardcore cataloguer. It's just too bad that most of my friends aren't hardcore cataloguers. And that leaves me with GR.
101klarusu
I think LT does care about what people are reading, it's what makes up a large proportion of the forum posts. Maybe it doesn't see the need to make a major thing about having a 'Currently Reading' feature per se but then not everyone does think that's important - certainly for me it's minor and a bit gimmicky. But neither do I see LT as primarily social networking, that implies something shallow (and I hate the term anyway ... it's a personal thing ... don't jump on me ... it goes in the 'terms from hell' bucket alongside 'Human Resources' ...). LT has hugely vibrant forums which enables plenty of discussions, plus user-driven groups that track reading in a diverse manner. Horses for courses though, not everyone uses LT in the same way.
102_Zoe_
>101 klarusu: The thing is, it just makes up a large proportion of forum posts because that's what people care to talk about, not because that's what Tim intended the forums for.
The forums do work for general book discussions with current LT users, but they're not going to attact my RL friends to LT. Believe me, I've tried.
And for the record, currently-reading isn't what I'm actually interested in at all; I think it will be largely useless for my purposes (if you read a book in one sitting, it's never going to appear there). What I want is something like the GR updates on what your friends are reading, a sort of Connection News based on reading dates.
The forums do work for general book discussions with current LT users, but they're not going to attact my RL friends to LT. Believe me, I've tried.
And for the record, currently-reading isn't what I'm actually interested in at all; I think it will be largely useless for my purposes (if you read a book in one sitting, it's never going to appear there). What I want is something like the GR updates on what your friends are reading, a sort of Connection News based on reading dates.
103klarusu
Yep, like I said, horses for courses. I tried Goodreads and Shelfari but just never stuck with them for more than just a look-see. I tried LT the same way and never left. My first 8-10 months I didn't really hang out on Talk at all, just fiddled with my library and I still don't use the 'social connections' side, I have all that kind of thing (MWYB etc.) disabled wherever I can. I guess that must mean that it was the cataloguing that 'caught' me, so I suppose I could be classes as a 'cataloguer' of sorts. I can understand the other side of the coin.
104_Zoe_
To be honest, I've never really been able to stick around at GR either. I only go there for the list of current most-read books. But given my failure to attract my friends to LT, I'm willing to consider other options. My first choice would be to make LT more appealing to a wider audience, and my second choice would be an LT facebook app, but I'm not expecting either of those things anytime soon....
105onyx95
It let me vote again, yeah LT
Library Thing (47%, 788 Votes)
GoodReads (42%, 709 Votes)
Good Reads looked more like a personal blog than a community website to me. I joined quite a while ago and found I didn't like it right away, plus there are not as many people as we have here and they don't (at least they didn't with me) seem very inviting - Unlike here.
Library Thing (47%, 788 Votes)
GoodReads (42%, 709 Votes)
Good Reads looked more like a personal blog than a community website to me. I joined quite a while ago and found I didn't like it right away, plus there are not as many people as we have here and they don't (at least they didn't with me) seem very inviting - Unlike here.
106DWWilkin
I tested on quitting the browser and revisiting the site. I was not allowed to vote again, not that I would.
But I do think, as I reported last night, that an exact 100 votes in 1/2 hour for GR seems very circumspect.
But I do think, as I reported last night, that an exact 100 votes in 1/2 hour for GR seems very circumspect.
107abbottthomas
LT 839
GR 709
GR 709
108rsterling
From my quick looks at GR, I don't think they track currently reading or send you updates based on date read. I think it's by shelf, new reviews, or maybe just recent new activity. From the profiles I've looked at, a lot of people don't use date read.
I think one of the big differences between the two is indeed the social aspect, or one kind of social interaction, the fact that it sends you and displays information about your friends (and sends them information about you). When you do something (or certain things), it lets your friends know, sometimes by email (e.g. friends' reviews). LT is set up in a way that can do much of that as well, through Connections News, except it doesn't do it by email, and maybe doesn't track quite as much of your activity. LT also gives at least equal attention to similar libraries rather than a more select group of "friends," which I actually like better, because it helps me to explore new libraries and make connections with new people.
Perhaps, to compete with other sites, LT might need to emphasize and develop more the social and activity-update features of LT. I'm actually uncomfortable with broadcasting all my activities, and I've been opposed to some of the other tracking that's been proposed from time to time (e.g. letting your friends know when you change your profile, etc.). But if these things could be developed in ways that let people decide to some extent what information to share, I wouldn't necessarily oppose LT emphasizing that social/update side more.
I think one of the big differences between the two is indeed the social aspect, or one kind of social interaction, the fact that it sends you and displays information about your friends (and sends them information about you). When you do something (or certain things), it lets your friends know, sometimes by email (e.g. friends' reviews). LT is set up in a way that can do much of that as well, through Connections News, except it doesn't do it by email, and maybe doesn't track quite as much of your activity. LT also gives at least equal attention to similar libraries rather than a more select group of "friends," which I actually like better, because it helps me to explore new libraries and make connections with new people.
Perhaps, to compete with other sites, LT might need to emphasize and develop more the social and activity-update features of LT. I'm actually uncomfortable with broadcasting all my activities, and I've been opposed to some of the other tracking that's been proposed from time to time (e.g. letting your friends know when you change your profile, etc.). But if these things could be developed in ways that let people decide to some extent what information to share, I wouldn't necessarily oppose LT emphasizing that social/update side more.
109_Zoe_
Maybe you're right, and it's just done by books added to the "finished" shelf rather than by date. But anyway, it's more than just currently reading, which is too fleeting to show complete data.
I definitely think letting users control what information is shared is critical. But I also think that a bit more sharing among specific people (i.e., friends) would be nice. LT meets most of my needs for a book-cataloguing site, and I've met lots of nice people here, but I still want to follow what my RL friends are reading.
I definitely think letting users control what information is shared is critical. But I also think that a bit more sharing among specific people (i.e., friends) would be nice. LT meets most of my needs for a book-cataloguing site, and I've met lots of nice people here, but I still want to follow what my RL friends are reading.
110timspalding
For the record, I really don't think people should vote more than once!
111DaynaRT
I voted from the five computers I have easy access too*. You can ban me for life now, Tim.
*not because I find a poll on a romance novel** website to be of any great importance, but because I thought GoodReads' Twitter appeal was obnoxious
**not that there's anything wrong with that
*not because I find a poll on a romance novel** website to be of any great importance, but because I thought GoodReads' Twitter appeal was obnoxious
**not that there's anything wrong with that
113klarusu
I voted once ... well ... then I voted for my daughter ... but she has her own LT account ... and if she were tall enough to type on the computer and, I don't know, at least 2, then I KNOW she would have voted for LT ;)
114DaynaRT
>112 klarusu:
Yeah, they were whining about some website trying to influence the poll.
And Tim, did you see LT's mention in the Guardian? I sent you a Twitter message about it....not that you ever check those things. ;)
Yeah, they were whining about some website trying to influence the poll.
And Tim, did you see LT's mention in the Guardian? I sent you a Twitter message about it....not that you ever check those things. ;)
117Lman
>110 timspalding:
Tim, I agree - that was the actual point of my post. I was just checking if I could vote more than once...and I could. If it is possible to vote many times (and I'm guessing other-site members are doing the same) - then the poll result is not worth considering.
Perhaps someone (I'm not going back in there now) should add a comment stating such!
Tim, I agree - that was the actual point of my post. I was just checking if I could vote more than once...and I could. If it is possible to vote many times (and I'm guessing other-site members are doing the same) - then the poll result is not worth considering.
Perhaps someone (I'm not going back in there now) should add a comment stating such!
118Aerrin99
> 108 Perhaps, to compete with other sites, LT might need to emphasize and develop more the social and activity-update features of LT.
I just wanted to pipe in to say that I agree with this.
I think that LT actually has a lot of social activity, but sometimes it's a little hidden and often it's not all that instinctive. As a fairly new LT user, there are a lot of little niggling things that I've come to expect on other social websites that LT just doesn't do.
For example, I can leave a comment on another user's profile, but it's difficult to hold a conversation, because there are no threaded comments, or no 'wall to wall' (for a facebook example) equivalent. Under 'connections', I can see only my friends, but I have to tell it to look at my friends and not my 50 top libraries /every single time/ - something that's really frustrating on a slower connection. I love the 'connection' update on my homepage, but I dearly wish the items there were dated, and that it also had the option to include information about other activities, such as commenting on other profiles (completely opt-out-able by my friends, of course! Privacy should always always be an option). I love that talk shows up on my home page, but it's a bit difficult to manage, since you can't group groups (wouldn't it be great if you could assign groups to different 'tabs' that would appear next to the 'your groups' and 'your starred' and 'your posts' options?) and there's no way to get directly to your group's page (rather than an individual thread) from the homepage. I want to share things I'm reading with my friends who aren't on LT and use that to encourage them to join the madness - but there's no facebook app that will really do that in any significant sort of way.
These are all just little tiny things - nothing big, nothing that keeps me away. But they do tend to add up, especially if your main reason for being on the site is to discuss or track books rather than catalog.
Of course, all that said, I know that our illustrious leaders tend to be hard at work on a number of really fascinating and much-anticipated projects. But in the long-term, I do think it'd be nice to clean up some of the social features a little. I think there's definitely a market for it, and we already have the ground-level!
I just wanted to pipe in to say that I agree with this.
I think that LT actually has a lot of social activity, but sometimes it's a little hidden and often it's not all that instinctive. As a fairly new LT user, there are a lot of little niggling things that I've come to expect on other social websites that LT just doesn't do.
For example, I can leave a comment on another user's profile, but it's difficult to hold a conversation, because there are no threaded comments, or no 'wall to wall' (for a facebook example) equivalent. Under 'connections', I can see only my friends, but I have to tell it to look at my friends and not my 50 top libraries /every single time/ - something that's really frustrating on a slower connection. I love the 'connection' update on my homepage, but I dearly wish the items there were dated, and that it also had the option to include information about other activities, such as commenting on other profiles (completely opt-out-able by my friends, of course! Privacy should always always be an option). I love that talk shows up on my home page, but it's a bit difficult to manage, since you can't group groups (wouldn't it be great if you could assign groups to different 'tabs' that would appear next to the 'your groups' and 'your starred' and 'your posts' options?) and there's no way to get directly to your group's page (rather than an individual thread) from the homepage. I want to share things I'm reading with my friends who aren't on LT and use that to encourage them to join the madness - but there's no facebook app that will really do that in any significant sort of way.
These are all just little tiny things - nothing big, nothing that keeps me away. But they do tend to add up, especially if your main reason for being on the site is to discuss or track books rather than catalog.
Of course, all that said, I know that our illustrious leaders tend to be hard at work on a number of really fascinating and much-anticipated projects. But in the long-term, I do think it'd be nice to clean up some of the social features a little. I think there's definitely a market for it, and we already have the ground-level!
119nobooksnolife
I'll bet there are a lot of bloggers who wish they'd thought of this poll to increase traffic on their blogs...
120Esta1923
LT is far and away the best thing I accsess. There is enough going on (and at various levels) that I can contribute daily. Often someone responds to my posting ~~~ ego-boosting deluxe!
122Heather19
I made the mistake of subscribing to the blog post, so I get comments in my email when someone comments on the post, because I wanted to see what people would say about LT.
Now I'm just getting frustrated/mad at all the apparent hate for "censorship" and ER, which is complete crap and untrue and I'm holding back from making a mean ranting reply to all those people.
Now I'm just getting frustrated/mad at all the apparent hate for "censorship" and ER, which is complete crap and untrue and I'm holding back from making a mean ranting reply to all those people.
123kathrynmagendie
I'm a new Library Thinger (is that correct, laughing...). In fact, the publisher - the small press, little Indie publisher sent me here - so surely they do not feel as if they are ignored or whatever *smiling*
Anyway, I put my vote in for Library Thing.
Anyway, I put my vote in for Library Thing.
127michelle_bcf
Well, I use both LT and GR, and so I voted for both. They have a different feel to them, and both have things that I like. I'm sure there's room for both, and I don't know why many here are so anti-GR!
129kathrynmagendie
Hi! :-)
130Booksloth
You'll like it here - we're ever so nice - but we do spend far too much time online and spend far too much money on books; hope you're ready for that!
131Neverwithoutabook
I voted. Once. :) Results are now:
LT - 1275
GR - 1174
LT - 1275
GR - 1174
132kathrynmagendie
Gawd! You should see my home library!
I spend a good bit of time online, as well....especially lately it seems.
I'm glad to be here... t'anky for the welcome!
I spend a good bit of time online, as well....especially lately it seems.
I'm glad to be here... t'anky for the welcome!
133mmignano11
I voted and we are in the lead.
135Carnophile
But we want everyone else to know!
136timspalding
I gotta say, I hope ballot stuffing was minimal, or GR stuffed some too. If people did that on LT I'd get pretty upset. Except for the naming of Abby's baby, since she clearly ignored the will of community there.
137_Celeste_
I voted only once. I love LibraryThing, but not enough to stuff the ballot box for you, Tim! It is thoroughly unnecessary anyway. LibraryThing can stand on it's own merits.
138staffordcastle
Yes, I voted twice, but I do have two accounts! :-)
139Carnophile
>136 timspalding:
I hope ballot stuffing was minimal, or GR stuffed some too.
It looks like they did; see message 88 above.
I hope ballot stuffing was minimal, or GR stuffed some too.
It looks like they did; see message 88 above.
140Booksloth
#139 and 88 I take the point in 88 - a round 100 always seems suspicious - but I have to argue with the person who posted that message thinking they were all in the middle of the night. The middle of the night for you isn't necessarily the middle of the night for the rest of the world, you know.
143Carnophile
The Earth is round?! I think you've been reading too much science fiction!
145Esta1923
. . . which turtle stands on the back of another turtle which stands on the back of another turtle. . .It's turtles all the way down!
151tardis
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'....
(the Galaxy Song by Monty Python)
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'....
(the Galaxy Song by Monty Python)
155PortiaLong
Hear, Hear...I'll drink (more beer) to that!
156Carnophile
In Illuminatus they dose a guy with a drug that makes you attracted to new ideas. He was the guy who discovered the truth: The Earth is shaped like a carrot; we all live on the large end.
160abbottthomas
Is there a trophy??
161jseger9000
I just voted.
Currently it's at: LT 2655, GR 2502
I enjoyed reading through the posts, but it seems to have been sidetracked by two GR members debating the ethics of using ad blocking software.
Hearing the negatives about the top two sites was pretty interesting to me.
GR's own members are complaining about stuff that is never even a problem here at LT: crazy amounts of spam from self published authors, ads (which apparently bug some GR members enough that they are blocking them) and books can only be edited by some form of 'power user'. I visited GR but never poked around too much. I didn't like the ads myself.
LT seemed to have fewer negatives (or my reading was biased). The only valid complaints (I'm ignoring Brad's 'semi-private' thing because I didn't understand it) against LT are the cost of membership and that maybe the site could be a little more social.
I don't understand the complaints about paying for membership. If you can't currently pay the $25.00, pay $10.00 and you will have A YEAR to save up $25.00. I mean seriously, how broke can you be? Borrowing Twilight from the library instead of buying a copy will cover you here for a year. Maybe I'm just insensitive.
I do kinda agree with the complainers on that poll (and _Zoe_) on the second point. (See my suggestion thread for 'Members currently reading this book' for example.) LT is great and does have a social angle, but a lot of folks don't notice it right away. Even the LT users discussing the poll tended to mention that they were on the site for a while before discovering talk, etc.
Currently it's at: LT 2655, GR 2502
I enjoyed reading through the posts, but it seems to have been sidetracked by two GR members debating the ethics of using ad blocking software.
Hearing the negatives about the top two sites was pretty interesting to me.
GR's own members are complaining about stuff that is never even a problem here at LT: crazy amounts of spam from self published authors, ads (which apparently bug some GR members enough that they are blocking them) and books can only be edited by some form of 'power user'. I visited GR but never poked around too much. I didn't like the ads myself.
LT seemed to have fewer negatives (or my reading was biased). The only valid complaints (I'm ignoring Brad's 'semi-private' thing because I didn't understand it) against LT are the cost of membership and that maybe the site could be a little more social.
I don't understand the complaints about paying for membership. If you can't currently pay the $25.00, pay $10.00 and you will have A YEAR to save up $25.00. I mean seriously, how broke can you be? Borrowing Twilight from the library instead of buying a copy will cover you here for a year. Maybe I'm just insensitive.
I do kinda agree with the complainers on that poll (and _Zoe_) on the second point. (See my suggestion thread for 'Members currently reading this book' for example.) LT is great and does have a social angle, but a lot of folks don't notice it right away. Even the LT users discussing the poll tended to mention that they were on the site for a while before discovering talk, etc.
162timspalding
We're continually playing with the membership fees. Most members don't know that when you actually go to pay, it turns into "pay what you want." The result is better for us—the numbers are higher—and obviously better for people who really can't pay. But we haven't put this info—that it's pay-what-you-want—elsewhere. It feels to me like, if you think you're about to pay $10, you're happy to discover it's pay-what-you-want. We may do that.
163kawika
>161 jseger9000: If GR is still running it as they were about a year ago, the "power user" thing is activated in a couple of ways. One of them is to hit a threshold number of books. Then you apply for the ability to edit and they'll grant it. However, my problem with their editing is that it's global (at least it was when I was there) and once you change something, about a book, it affects everybody else who has that book. I especially didn't like that I couldn't add some of my older cover images because it would then override the default cover for all the other users.
That, and that they get their initial information from Amazon makes it a less desirable place for me. I'm pretty happy with LT, my personal opinion on how the release of collections has been handled notwithstanding. I'll stay here and continue to recommend it to my friends.
That, and that they get their initial information from Amazon makes it a less desirable place for me. I'm pretty happy with LT, my personal opinion on how the release of collections has been handled notwithstanding. I'll stay here and continue to recommend it to my friends.
164timspalding
Yeah, they have a basic difference in how they deal with data. From an ease-of-programming perspective, I wish we had their way. They have one record for every work, basically. Which means that users just have a list of "pointers" to those works, not separate, editable data.
165Booksloth
#161 LT could be a bit more 'social'? I spend my whole life socialising here - what more could I expect? Any more social and you'd all be living in my house! (Not that I'd mind but there's not an awful lot of room.)
166timspalding
I know, any more social and someone might catch something!
167jseger9000
#164 - LT could be a bit more 'social'?
I mean it would be nice (for example) if I could go to the work page for The Stand and find out that six other members are also currently reading the book. I think that would foster more discussions and I'd connect with other members who I may otherwise never talk to.
Currently, unless every member reading The Stand also happens to be a member of the 'Stephen King's Dear Constant Readers' group (who also actively checks and responds to the threads there), that doesn't happen.
I know that there are some users who aren't here primarily for the social aspects and could care less who else is currently reading The Stand. I think however that they benefit from those that do like it. For me, cataloging my books was the initial draw to LT, but it's all the social interaction that makes me check back in several times a day. The more I check in, the more I started looking for other stuff I could help out with (combining or creating series or whatever). So my addiction to the site helps other users.
And please don't start in with the 'This will be solved by collections' stuff. Collections will be an amazing feature when/if it is rolled out, but too many of the 'Recommended Site Improvement' threads turn into 'Collections wil fix that.' If Collections does fix something, but is in any way clunky to use (especially for a new user to the site) then it may be an answer, but not necessarily the best answer when something simpler would do.
I mean it would be nice (for example) if I could go to the work page for The Stand and find out that six other members are also currently reading the book. I think that would foster more discussions and I'd connect with other members who I may otherwise never talk to.
Currently, unless every member reading The Stand also happens to be a member of the 'Stephen King's Dear Constant Readers' group (who also actively checks and responds to the threads there), that doesn't happen.
I know that there are some users who aren't here primarily for the social aspects and could care less who else is currently reading The Stand. I think however that they benefit from those that do like it. For me, cataloging my books was the initial draw to LT, but it's all the social interaction that makes me check back in several times a day. The more I check in, the more I started looking for other stuff I could help out with (combining or creating series or whatever). So my addiction to the site helps other users.
And please don't start in with the 'This will be solved by collections' stuff. Collections will be an amazing feature when/if it is rolled out, but too many of the 'Recommended Site Improvement' threads turn into 'Collections wil fix that.' If Collections does fix something, but is in any way clunky to use (especially for a new user to the site) then it may be an answer, but not necessarily the best answer when something simpler would do.
168jseger9000
#162 - Most members don't know that when you actually go to pay, it turns into "pay what you want."
I didn't know that!
I think your (recommended) fees are extremely reasonable anyway. Sure I might have just come off as griping in my previous post, but I'll tell you LT is the best $25.00 I've ever spent. I think you should add a 'donate' link at the bottom of the home page, along with the Help/FAQs | About | Privacy/Terms | Blog... etc. I wouldn't mind kicking in a little extra $$$ every now and then and am betting that there are other users who feel the same way.
I didn't know that!
I think your (recommended) fees are extremely reasonable anyway. Sure I might have just come off as griping in my previous post, but I'll tell you LT is the best $25.00 I've ever spent. I think you should add a 'donate' link at the bottom of the home page, along with the Help/FAQs | About | Privacy/Terms | Blog... etc. I wouldn't mind kicking in a little extra $$$ every now and then and am betting that there are other users who feel the same way.
169Booksloth
#167
But what difference can it possibly make who's reading what at the same time? I mean, if you want to discuss a particular book there are plenty of ways of doing that, either by responding to a review, contacting someone who has it in their library or simply setting up a discussion thread. Does it really make any difference whether they finished it a month/week/year before/after you? Surely the 'social' part of LT is all about chatting to people with similar tastes in books and in general as well. I mean, no reason why you shouldn't want to talk to someone who's reading what you are if that's your thing, but it seems to be a very precise need that can easily be satisfied without any great change to the site.
But what difference can it possibly make who's reading what at the same time? I mean, if you want to discuss a particular book there are plenty of ways of doing that, either by responding to a review, contacting someone who has it in their library or simply setting up a discussion thread. Does it really make any difference whether they finished it a month/week/year before/after you? Surely the 'social' part of LT is all about chatting to people with similar tastes in books and in general as well. I mean, no reason why you shouldn't want to talk to someone who's reading what you are if that's your thing, but it seems to be a very precise need that can easily be satisfied without any great change to the site.
170jseger9000
#169 - But what difference can it possibly make who's reading what at the same time?
I don't know. Why don't you ask anyone who's ever participated in a book club?
I mean, if you want to discuss a particular book there are plenty of ways of doing that, either by responding to a review, contacting someone who has it in their library or simply setting up a discussion thread.
Good luck. I'd say 3/4 of my library is TBR. Someone who randomly saw a book in my library and wanted to contact me would most likely hit a book I bought and haven't read. And as I mentioned, if that member isn't part of whatever group I started the discussion in, they will never know about it.
Keeping The Stand as an example, there are 183 discussions of the book listed on the work page. It wouldn't be so easy t connect with someone who is currently reading it or has finished with it recently enough that they could/would enjoy discussing it with you.
but it seems to be a very precise need that can easily be satisfied without any great change to the site.
But would it really be that great a change? There's already a 'Currently Reading' checkbox that nobody uses because the data doesn't go anywhere. I just thought it would be nice if we could have a line added to the Members field on the work page called something like: Members that are currently reading this book: with a display of users that have checked the Currently Reading' box.
If an LT user didn't want to do this, all they would have to do is not use the checkbox. Since most people don't currently use it anyway, it would create no change to those that don't wish to participate. On the other hand, it would be a pretty easy feature to figure out if you did want to use it.
But now I'm just rehashing a subject I brought up elsewhere. Sorry.
I don't know. Why don't you ask anyone who's ever participated in a book club?
I mean, if you want to discuss a particular book there are plenty of ways of doing that, either by responding to a review, contacting someone who has it in their library or simply setting up a discussion thread.
Good luck. I'd say 3/4 of my library is TBR. Someone who randomly saw a book in my library and wanted to contact me would most likely hit a book I bought and haven't read. And as I mentioned, if that member isn't part of whatever group I started the discussion in, they will never know about it.
Keeping The Stand as an example, there are 183 discussions of the book listed on the work page. It wouldn't be so easy t connect with someone who is currently reading it or has finished with it recently enough that they could/would enjoy discussing it with you.
but it seems to be a very precise need that can easily be satisfied without any great change to the site.
But would it really be that great a change? There's already a 'Currently Reading' checkbox that nobody uses because the data doesn't go anywhere. I just thought it would be nice if we could have a line added to the Members field on the work page called something like: Members that are currently reading this book: with a display of users that have checked the Currently Reading' box.
If an LT user didn't want to do this, all they would have to do is not use the checkbox. Since most people don't currently use it anyway, it would create no change to those that don't wish to participate. On the other hand, it would be a pretty easy feature to figure out if you did want to use it.
But now I'm just rehashing a subject I brought up elsewhere. Sorry.
171stephmo
>169 Booksloth: I think some folks prefer a more "guaranteed" way of starting discussions. To start a new thread "hey, is anyone reading The Stand this week?" is a shot in the dark. If you can see that at least 30 members have marked it "currently reading," you might feel better about starting a thread.
Of course, that leaves out the issue of how many of those 30 really want to discuss what they're reading & want to discuss it in the same manner. The 999 group is doing a group read of Brothers K right now and it's split into the spoiler v. non-spoiler thread so as to not offend. The spoiler allowed has no play, the no spoilers got split off into a section read with limited comments.
And then there's the matter of failing to update statuses. I'm on All Consuming where you check-box your consumption. I've noticed people who've been consuming the same book, movie or food for months and years...I don't think I'll be chatting with them about it anytime soon. :)
ETA -
> 169 That's sort of Apples and FishSticks, isn't it? You generally seek out a book club and commit to reading the book and show up to a meeting - it's rather active. A lot more so than checking a currently reading status implies...
Of course, that leaves out the issue of how many of those 30 really want to discuss what they're reading & want to discuss it in the same manner. The 999 group is doing a group read of Brothers K right now and it's split into the spoiler v. non-spoiler thread so as to not offend. The spoiler allowed has no play, the no spoilers got split off into a section read with limited comments.
And then there's the matter of failing to update statuses. I'm on All Consuming where you check-box your consumption. I've noticed people who've been consuming the same book, movie or food for months and years...I don't think I'll be chatting with them about it anytime soon. :)
ETA -
> 169 That's sort of Apples and FishSticks, isn't it? You generally seek out a book club and commit to reading the book and show up to a meeting - it's rather active. A lot more so than checking a currently reading status implies...
172jjwilson61
There's no need to get hot under the collar. I believe it is Tim's intention to add such a feature but it is behind several other features right now (some of which may be considered precursors to this feature). Tim doesn't have the resources to implement everything everyone wants with no delay.
173MerryMary
I think a lot of us forget that changing the site, or adding features is not magic. There are code changes that often interact in odd ways with other bits of the site. Sometimes changing something changes something else in bad ways. (Sorry for all the technical terms, but I'm explaining this as best I can in the way I myself understand it.)
174timspalding
Currently reading is tricky. It's really the last issue hanging up collections. (There are some implementation pieces still in process, but no other "issues.") The basic question is whether to make the currently reading collection "hooked" into anything else—updating date-read fields, or feeding into a more general-purpose "status" stream. The problem is more than code—it's what people want. People want different things, for sure.
On the magic, that's very true. Some features we can add very easily,b but if it's going to have hooks into many key places (eg., adding books, changing collections, etc.) or if it's affecting some very large data structure (eg., 36 million books), it's something we need to get right from the start.
On the magic, that's very true. Some features we can add very easily,b but if it's going to have hooks into many key places (eg., adding books, changing collections, etc.) or if it's affecting some very large data structure (eg., 36 million books), it's something we need to get right from the start.
175MerryMary
Actually, maybe magic is the best explanation. Magic with long complex spells, loads of exotic ingredients, and mages with long hours of toil over boiling cauldrons in secret lairs. (I've seen you posting at 4:00 in the morning, tim.)
Thanks for not taking me to task for my depth of knowledge about the inner workings of coding for a site. ;-)
Thanks for not taking me to task for my depth of knowledge about the inner workings of coding for a site. ;-)
176rsterling
167> I admit to being one who sometimes says "Collections will fix this" when people suggest wishlist, currently reading, etc., but that is simply because these requests come up every 2 days, and the posters generally don't bother to look to see if it's been suggested before.
177jseger9000
#174 - Currently reading is tricky. It's really the last issue hanging up collections.
Now I may sound like I'm speaking against my own cause, but maybe Currently Reading shouldn't be a collection?
Looking through the others listed as an example in post #267 of the Collections: Assignment User-interface, I can see how Reasearch Books, Your Library, Wishlist, Childrens' Books, etc. could all be very long lists of books that have a common theme. I suppose Currently Reading could be too, but it is much more ephemeral a thing than Childrens' Books.
Wishlist is close, but even then that is more likely to be a very long list that won't go through huge amounts of change. Currently reading seems like it would be a much smaller list that would change faster than a wishlist.
Boy I've derailed this talk topic. Sorry!
Now I may sound like I'm speaking against my own cause, but maybe Currently Reading shouldn't be a collection?
Looking through the others listed as an example in post #267 of the Collections: Assignment User-interface, I can see how Reasearch Books, Your Library, Wishlist, Childrens' Books, etc. could all be very long lists of books that have a common theme. I suppose Currently Reading could be too, but it is much more ephemeral a thing than Childrens' Books.
Wishlist is close, but even then that is more likely to be a very long list that won't go through huge amounts of change. Currently reading seems like it would be a much smaller list that would change faster than a wishlist.
Boy I've derailed this talk topic. Sorry!
178Carnophile
Currently reading is tricky. It's really the last issue hanging up collections.
Oh! Oh! Oh! "Last issue"! Does that mean what I think it does?! Don't tease, Spaldo!
Oh! Oh! Oh! "Last issue"! Does that mean what I think it does?! Don't tease, Spaldo!
179_Zoe_
The basic question is whether to make the currently reading collection "hooked" into anything else—updating date-read fields, or feeding into a more general-purpose "status" stream. The problem is more than code—it's what people want. People want different things, for sure.
I think this is a big enough issue that when it comes to "what people want", you're going to have to let users choose between different options. Some people want currently-reading to update the date-read fields, and others don't; some people want currently-reading books to display on their profile, others don't--so let people choose. The other option is to have the currently-reading collection do nothing, in which case it's sort of pointless and I'd agree with jseger that it just shouldn't exist.
What would a more general-purpose status stream involve?
Also, are you still going to keep track of when a book entered a currently-reading collection to avoid the problem of people forgetting to update that collection ever again?
I think this is a big enough issue that when it comes to "what people want", you're going to have to let users choose between different options. Some people want currently-reading to update the date-read fields, and others don't; some people want currently-reading books to display on their profile, others don't--so let people choose. The other option is to have the currently-reading collection do nothing, in which case it's sort of pointless and I'd agree with jseger that it just shouldn't exist.
What would a more general-purpose status stream involve?
Also, are you still going to keep track of when a book entered a currently-reading collection to avoid the problem of people forgetting to update that collection ever again?
180jseger9000
#179 - Also, are you still going to keep track of when a book entered a currently-reading collection to avoid the problem of people forgetting to update that collection ever again?
At some point the user has to be responsible for their own data. Currently reading could become a mess of some user tags Twilight as such and never comes back I guess, but the LT staff shouldn't have to keep track of how long something has been tagged as currently reading. We are given a date started and date completed field. If the 'Currently Reading' checkbox were placed right next to those fields, it would be less likely to be forgotten.
At some point the user has to be responsible for their own data. Currently reading could become a mess of some user tags Twilight as such and never comes back I guess, but the LT staff shouldn't have to keep track of how long something has been tagged as currently reading. We are given a date started and date completed field. If the 'Currently Reading' checkbox were placed right next to those fields, it would be less likely to be forgotten.
181_Zoe_
I think something has to be done to avoid people coming to the site once and saying that they're currently reading something, then never coming back. I'd like the date fields to be part of the solution, but Tim generally prefers to avoid them as much as possible.
182jseger9000
I was getting worried that like the Democrats, we'd get so involved here debating our own in-house stuff we'd forget to vote in that poll.
I just went to check (no, I didn't vote a second time): LT 2,708; GR 2,506
Hey, we may be a fractious lot with a smaller base, but we love our LibraryThing!
I just went to check (no, I didn't vote a second time): LT 2,708; GR 2,506
Hey, we may be a fractious lot with a smaller base, but we love our LibraryThing!
183jjwilson61
I never agreed that Currently Reading should be a Collection (not that I get a vote). I think the implementation with the current boxes should be finished.
184PortiaLong
Responding to the conversation a little bit further up - If I really wanted to discuss a particular book I would click the conversations number on the work page and see if there are any current topics on it - if not I would pick the most likely topic and "revive" it - figuring maybe people who were interested in discussed the book might have it starred and see the new activity and come join me.
185_Zoe_
One problem is, "conversations" about a book are most often just passing mentions in "What are you reading now?" threads.
I'm starting to agree with jjwilson and jseger that Currently Reading shouldn't be a collection after all. It's intended for a completely different purpose than most collections, and the fact that everything else is done while Currently Reading remains problematic suggests that the whole Currently Reading issue could use a complete re-think.
I'm starting to agree with jjwilson and jseger that Currently Reading shouldn't be a collection after all. It's intended for a completely different purpose than most collections, and the fact that everything else is done while Currently Reading remains problematic suggests that the whole Currently Reading issue could use a complete re-think.
186timspalding
One problem is, "conversations" about a book are most often just passing mentions in "What are you reading now?" threads.
Yes. I agree. I think we need to figure out how to dampen that effect. Any ideas? One would be to proclaim certain threads as "challenge threads" or whatever, so they weren't counted by default (but only if you did something special). I think it's a big, big problem, largely nulling the system, which I rather like and indeed slaved over, so it's of particular concern to me.
I'm starting to agree with jjwilson and jseger that Currently Reading shouldn't be a collection after all. It's intended for a completely different purpose than most collections, and the fact that everything else is done while Currently Reading remains problematic suggests that the whole Currently Reading issue could use a complete re-think.
People will think of it as one. Lots of people just want an easy way to designate that. I note that it's common on other sites...
Yes. I agree. I think we need to figure out how to dampen that effect. Any ideas? One would be to proclaim certain threads as "challenge threads" or whatever, so they weren't counted by default (but only if you did something special). I think it's a big, big problem, largely nulling the system, which I rather like and indeed slaved over, so it's of particular concern to me.
I'm starting to agree with jjwilson and jseger that Currently Reading shouldn't be a collection after all. It's intended for a completely different purpose than most collections, and the fact that everything else is done while Currently Reading remains problematic suggests that the whole Currently Reading issue could use a complete re-think.
People will think of it as one. Lots of people just want an easy way to designate that. I note that it's common on other sites...
187PhaedraB
>186 timspalding:
One problem is, "conversations" about a book are most often just passing mentions in "What are you reading now?" threads.
Yes. I agree. I think we need to figure out how to dampen that effect. Any ideas? One would be to proclaim certain threads as "challenge threads" or whatever, so they weren't counted by default (but only if you did something special). I think it's a big, big problem, largely nulling the system, which I rather like and indeed slaved over, so it's of particular concern to me.
This is something I would love to see addressed, although I don't know how. I stopped checking for discussions of books I own because it is swamped with Harry Potter and passing mentions on challenge threads. Don't get me wrong, I like HP, but I'm really interested in where people might be discussing some of the more arcane books in my collection (no pun intended).
One problem is, "conversations" about a book are most often just passing mentions in "What are you reading now?" threads.
Yes. I agree. I think we need to figure out how to dampen that effect. Any ideas? One would be to proclaim certain threads as "challenge threads" or whatever, so they weren't counted by default (but only if you did something special). I think it's a big, big problem, largely nulling the system, which I rather like and indeed slaved over, so it's of particular concern to me.
This is something I would love to see addressed, although I don't know how. I stopped checking for discussions of books I own because it is swamped with Harry Potter and passing mentions on challenge threads. Don't get me wrong, I like HP, but I'm really interested in where people might be discussing some of the more arcane books in my collection (no pun intended).
188stephmo
Although - LT really should consider making some quasi-definitive lists one of these days - and I think the challenge threads/discussions are a way to go.
I say this because the challenges are a bit more organic than a "let's build a list!" calls that will inevitably produce some "well, I should say this book or get behind this title since everyone else is" since the challenges basically involve folks progressively doing instead of just saying "Great Expectations."
I'm just saying that if there could be some records where the challenge threads pick up the most-mentioned, reviewed, rated and the highest/lowest rated books to build said lists...we could get some cool stuffs.
I say this because the challenges are a bit more organic than a "let's build a list!" calls that will inevitably produce some "well, I should say this book or get behind this title since everyone else is" since the challenges basically involve folks progressively doing instead of just saying "Great Expectations."
I'm just saying that if there could be some records where the challenge threads pick up the most-mentioned, reviewed, rated and the highest/lowest rated books to build said lists...we could get some cool stuffs.
189DWWilkin
If I look at my bedside table, I am currently reading 25 books, that I have started and gottena few pages, but have stopped to focus on one, or a few magazines, and so they might sit idle (some for years a few chapters in) while I devoura 200 page mystery over the next 3 days.
I might want to get in a discussion of a book with depth, but may not discuss at all a book that has little substance but was read just for fun...
I might want to get in a discussion of a book with depth, but may not discuss at all a book that has little substance but was read just for fun...
190lkernagh
I have read through the discussion and would like to add my personal 'two cents' regarding the Currently Reading topic. Today was the first time I ever checked the Currently Reading box on the main book menu and I will probably be unchecking the box tomorrow when I finish the book and move on to the next book in my TBR pile (I am assuming that is what one is supposed to do).
Every reader is different. I tend to focus on only one or two books at a time and finish them in quick order. I don't know how much value there is in collecting this information if I have a book marked as Currently Reading for only two days. On the flip side, I have a book I started back in December that I haven't touched in the past 6 weeks, so while I do intend to finish the book some time in the future, I do not consider this a book that I am currently reading and would not 'label' it as such. If I were to be approached by like reader I would have to admit that I can't even remember the summary of the 50 pages I managed to read before I was derailed by an influx of recommended TBR books that succeeded in monopolizing my time (with no complaints on my part).
Sorry if this doesn't help the issue but from my viewpoint, it isn't an easy one to deal with.
Every reader is different. I tend to focus on only one or two books at a time and finish them in quick order. I don't know how much value there is in collecting this information if I have a book marked as Currently Reading for only two days. On the flip side, I have a book I started back in December that I haven't touched in the past 6 weeks, so while I do intend to finish the book some time in the future, I do not consider this a book that I am currently reading and would not 'label' it as such. If I were to be approached by like reader I would have to admit that I can't even remember the summary of the 50 pages I managed to read before I was derailed by an influx of recommended TBR books that succeeded in monopolizing my time (with no complaints on my part).
Sorry if this doesn't help the issue but from my viewpoint, it isn't an easy one to deal with.
191ablachly
>178 Carnophile:
I'm going to start calling him "Spaldo" now.
I'm going to start calling him "Spaldo" now.
192DWWilkin
What if you had a default of a book you were currently reading, bu selecting it, and thus were able to be in book group relating to it, but as in groups, a simple x on the thread and you would opt out of it, though still be in your currently reading selections?
193Aerrin99
> 186 One would be to proclaim certain threads as "challenge threads" or whatever, so they weren't counted by default (but only if you did something special).
This is the best I can think of, too - although I would personally prefer to have the option to see it without (defaulted) and then to see the 'full list' if I clicked something.
Believe it or not, I've gotten useful info from those currently reading threads. People often give a brief note of how they're finding the book, and others chime in to talk about their recent experiences, and usually in these threads they're very unspoilery.
So they serve two different purposes - those threads are crap for finding actual discussion, but great for seeing whether the general gist on a book is positive or negative in a more spoiler-free sort of way than reviews tend to offer - and often in a much more concise sort of way.
That said, I could live without them. I /do/ have reviews, after all! Just. If it's an option!
This is the best I can think of, too - although I would personally prefer to have the option to see it without (defaulted) and then to see the 'full list' if I clicked something.
Believe it or not, I've gotten useful info from those currently reading threads. People often give a brief note of how they're finding the book, and others chime in to talk about their recent experiences, and usually in these threads they're very unspoilery.
So they serve two different purposes - those threads are crap for finding actual discussion, but great for seeing whether the general gist on a book is positive or negative in a more spoiler-free sort of way than reviews tend to offer - and often in a much more concise sort of way.
That said, I could live without them. I /do/ have reviews, after all! Just. If it's an option!
194_Zoe_
One would be to proclaim certain threads as "challenge threads" or whatever, so they weren't counted by default (but only if you did something special).
I think I'd rather have the opposite of this: rather than excluding certain threads, I'd like the ability to mark threads that really are focused on discussion of the book, which would show up more prominently on the conversations page. This could tie in with the whole book-discussion feature you mentioned recently.
I think I'd rather have the opposite of this: rather than excluding certain threads, I'd like the ability to mark threads that really are focused on discussion of the book, which would show up more prominently on the conversations page. This could tie in with the whole book-discussion feature you mentioned recently.
195jjwilson61
186> I'm starting to agree with jjwilson and jseger that Currently Reading shouldn't be a collection after all. It's intended for a completely different purpose than most collections, and the fact that everything else is done while Currently Reading remains problematic suggests that the whole Currently Reading issue could use a complete re-think.
People will think of it as one. Lots of people just want an easy way to designate that. I note that it's common on other sites...
But what are the divisions called on other sites? Shelves? I could see the metaphor of pulling a book off a shelf to read it, but collections are more permanent than that.
People will think of it as one. Lots of people just want an easy way to designate that. I note that it's common on other sites...
But what are the divisions called on other sites? Shelves? I could see the metaphor of pulling a book off a shelf to read it, but collections are more permanent than that.
196_Zoe_
Oh, I should have responded to that part of Tim's comment too: The checkboxes would be just as easy, if they were editable from the catalogue. Just because lots of people want an easy way to do something doesn't mean it has to be a collection.
197Heather19
I lost any useful reply long ago (too many posts to read through!), but I just have to say that this thread has reminded me, for the second time since that Currently Reading checkbox first came out, that I checked *one* book way back when, and never unchecked it when I finished the book.
..... I think I'll go do that now.
..... I think I'll go do that now.
198DevourerOfBooks
>197 Heather19:,
Do you actually remember what book it was? I'm impressed. I probably have a couple of checked books around somewhere.
Do you actually remember what book it was? I'm impressed. I probably have a couple of checked books around somewhere.
199Heather19
only reason I remember is because it's one of those naughty books I have to hide under my mattress..... lol
201jseger9000
197 - I checked *one* book way back when, and never unchecked it when I finished the book.
See, I think if that box actually did anything, especially something you would see on your profile or the work page, then people would remember to check/uncheck it more.
See, I think if that box actually did anything, especially something you would see on your profile or the work page, then people would remember to check/uncheck it more.
202E59F
>196 _Zoe_::
Isn't the collections part of it infrastructural? - i.e., that it's hard to make book statuses "do something" unless there's an underlying database structure to support this? Same problem as for wishlists, as I recall.
Isn't the collections part of it infrastructural? - i.e., that it's hard to make book statuses "do something" unless there's an underlying database structure to support this? Same problem as for wishlists, as I recall.
203_Zoe_
>202 E59F: You're probably right. Tim seemed to be arguing from a user perspective, though, and I don't think a collections-based Currently Reading has any significant benefit for the user.
204E59F
>203 _Zoe_::
That was more recall of past comments a couple of years ago than anything current. Possibly misremembered, too.
I can see a benefit to having Currently Reading tied to the collections infrastructure, but it's mainly from the point of view of making it easier for the developers to create UIs and extend functionality.
People are probably only going to use Currently Reading a lot if the UI is easier than having to go into your catalog or book record to edit the collection assignment for a book. Without collections, that means a system for first doing a search in your catalog and then editing the book record, either from Your Library or Edit Books. Or some sort of hack/kludge to do that without you necessarily realizing it (like the fiasco with the reading dates). Putting a more viable UI on the whole thing would be easier if the underlying system is designed to support book behaviors. But maybe I'm just projecting - Tim might be happier using the hack/kludge modus operandi ;)
That was more recall of past comments a couple of years ago than anything current. Possibly misremembered, too.
I can see a benefit to having Currently Reading tied to the collections infrastructure, but it's mainly from the point of view of making it easier for the developers to create UIs and extend functionality.
People are probably only going to use Currently Reading a lot if the UI is easier than having to go into your catalog or book record to edit the collection assignment for a book. Without collections, that means a system for first doing a search in your catalog and then editing the book record, either from Your Library or Edit Books. Or some sort of hack/kludge to do that without you necessarily realizing it (like the fiasco with the reading dates). Putting a more viable UI on the whole thing would be easier if the underlying system is designed to support book behaviors. But maybe I'm just projecting - Tim might be happier using the hack/kludge modus operandi ;)
205ExVivre
>193 Aerrin99: Believe it or not, I've gotten useful info from those currently reading threads. People often give a brief note of how they're finding the book, and others chime in to talk about their recent experiences, and usually in these threads they're very unspoilery.
Took the words right out of my keyboard...
>194 _Zoe_: I'd like the ability to mark threads that really are focused on discussion of the book
While I have yet to see an LT thread that stays on-topic enough to be considered focused (including this one) :) ...perhaps the ability to "thumb up" a thread on the conversation page would work?
Took the words right out of my keyboard...
>194 _Zoe_: I'd like the ability to mark threads that really are focused on discussion of the book
While I have yet to see an LT thread that stays on-topic enough to be considered focused (including this one) :) ...perhaps the ability to "thumb up" a thread on the conversation page would work?
206jjwilson61
204> I can see your point if status were just hitching a ride on Collections, but the work to add it to the database was already done when it was added to the edit page. As far as making it do something, like on the profile page, that's got to be the same amount of work no matter which way the UI is implemented.
And since the way to move a book from one Collection is going to be by going into your library and doing something to the book, I don't really see any ease-of-use advantage to there being a Currently Reading collection instead of being able to edit a field in library view.
And since the way to move a book from one Collection is going to be by going into your library and doing something to the book, I don't really see any ease-of-use advantage to there being a Currently Reading collection instead of being able to edit a field in library view.
207Carnophile
>191 ablachly:
A trend-setter, I am!
A trend-setter, I am!
208BookLover07
Im thrilled to see many people have voted. Don't worry, I have voted as well as commented (:
