HistoryCAT -- General Thread, part one

It's time to get the HistoryCAT challenge set up for 2015! Here's what we need to do:

1. Determine a structure. Do we want to go with time periods (1910-1920, 1800-1900, 1715, etc…), specific eras or events (WWI, Victorian Era, the Crusades, etc…), themes (war, disease, colonialization, etc…), something else, or a combination of approaches?

2. Figure out each month's theme.

3. Do we want a broad and a narrow focus each month as we did for the 2014 GeoCAT?

4. Find a volunteer for each month. Volunteers will need to set up a thread ten days to two weeks before the month in question. They'll need to provide an overview for the theme and suggestions of possible books, including both non-fiction and fiction.

So, let's start discussing...

1. Themes would be the most inclusive, as people can find books in whatever time period they like to read about. Specific eras or events seem to me to be really close to having a time period, only a time period can be anywhere in the world, while if you're saying the Crusades you narrow it down even more. I'd vote for either having every month be a theme or a combination of themes and time periods - that seems to really work in the Reading Through Time group.

2. Since I'm voting for themes, let me throw in some ideas for possible themes: education, war, royalty/rulers, crime, revolution, civil rights, the sea/nautical, disease, colonization/pioneers, religion, science, family.

3. I think a broad and narrow focus would be great. It would allow a combination of themes as broad focus with a time period/specific era/event as narrow focus. For instance, a broad theme of war could have a focus of WWI, civil rights could have a focus of the 1960s, etc. Best of both worlds really.

4. Unfortunately, I've already volunteered for a randomCAT month and I've got the Quarterly reads threads over on Reading Through Time to set up, so I can't volunteer for this one at the moment. Maybe in an emergency if there's no one to cover a specific month.

I think I would prefer alternating time periods and themes, but let's try and make the themes such that they are international. Instead of 'civil rights' with a focus on the 60s, 'human rights' with a focus on racial equality or voting rights. The same books would work, but so would books about South Africa. Or depending on the focus, books about immigrant integration in Europe or the suffragetes.

I won't decide whether or not to volunteer until I see whether I am going to participate or not.

Yes, I agree that it's important to set up our monthly themes so that they don't push us into only choosing "western" history.

>4 RidgewayGirl: or specifically US history.

>3 MarthaJeanne: I would prefer too, alterning period and themes, set in a way that the focus is not only on western history.

A broad and narrow focus for each month is a good idea and seems to work for the GeoCAT.

Let see what the majority is willing to do ...

I'd like to add another possibility to the mx. Since this is a single year activity, we have an opportunity to do something that we don't do in an open ended group like Reading Through Time. We could start with ancient history and work our way chronologically to modern history.

We could still use optional themes for focused reading. Perhaps two levels of focus would work. For example, for the 19th century there could be a theme of disasters with the Irish potato famine as a focus, or for the 1960s there could be a theme of war with Vietnam as a narrow focus.

Initially I was sure I wanted the structure to be completely time period-focused, working from the ancient times to the present. But Then I changed my mind because I realized that I'm never going to read that way. For me to feel like that was satisfying, I'd have to read SO MUCH in each category - to really cover everything - and then the year would be over before I'd even reached the Roman Empire. So, yeah. No to that.

So I say go with the themes instead. As many people have pointed out, broad, inclusive themes are great. We need to make sure that the phrasings we use doesn't rule out certain geographical areas. Like >3 MarthaJeanne: suggested, "human rights" works better than "civil rights" because the latter makes a lot of people automatically turn to the US and not consider other parts of the world (and other periods in time).

Since this is a single year activity, we have an opportunity to do something that we don't do in an open ended group like Reading Through Time. We could start with ancient history and work our way chronologically to modern history.

This is exactly what the Quarterly theme reads are doing in that group, albeit with a time period per quarter. We're actually going to be 'finishing' with post-WW2 to modern times in the last quarter. So personally, I'd rather work with something a little different in this CAT.

Also, I agree about not pushing people to Western fiction. I'm just really bad at thinking of examples on the fly :D.

>9 Samantha_kathy: I'd rather work with something a little different in this CAT

I would, too, which is why I suggested the chronological approach. The quarterly theme reads is a subgroup within Reading Through Time and I don't participate in it.

It's not a problem if no one else is interested in a chronological approach. I'm not sure I have enough time to do two history challenges (which is why I don't do the quarterly theme read) so I may not be participating in the HistoryCAT anyway, unless it coordinates with Reading Through Time.

Carrie, what would you think of trying to coordinate it with the Reading Through Time plans for 2015? It may not work, but it'd be worth a try.

Samantha_kathy, your theme suggestions were excellent and very inclusive. After all, we could only find one to pick on!

>11 RidgewayGirl: Carrie, what would you think of trying to coordinate it with the Reading Through Time plans for 2015? It may not work, but it'd be worth a try.

Once the HistoryCAT structure is settled we can bring it up in the Reading Through Time group and see if they're willing to go along. There is considerable overlap with the category group anyway. I think most of the active members are also active in the category group, although possibly not all of those have participated in the CATs.

I tried being a member of Reading Thru Time but I had my issues, like only choosing what the time-period or theme was a few weeks before hand. Are they doing that differently now?

>8 PawsforThought: Fully agreed.

>13 majkia: We start suggesting themes or time periods 2 months in advance and the final decision is usually made about a month in advance. It's a compromise between those who like to plan their reading far in advance and those who like to read spontaneously. We alternate between time periods and themes.

I like the idea of mixing themes and time periods -- for some months doing themes and other months time periods. I think that we should plan the whole year in advance as we did for GeoCAT. Also, I would prefer not starting at the beginning of history and going chronologically -- that reminds me too much of going to school when we concentrated on early history and hardly ever got to modern history.

As far as having a focus: it seems to me that many people, including myself, might have had intentions of reading for the specific focus, but ended up reading for the more general region. However, I'm not opposed to having a focus -- after all, these are voluntary.

I'm leaning towards favoring a theme approach over the time periods as it does seem more all-encompassing.

I was really looking forward to this challenge that's why I voted for it but as the discussion goes forward I see that the theme idea has taken hold and that is not how I envision this challenge. I gave up on the Reading thru Time group because of the theme thing - I really wanted more event driven. If I had wanted themes I could go back to the Reading through time challenge.

Enjoy your challenge.

>18 cyderry: Can you explain what you mean by "event driven" vs. themes? I'm not very excited about themes either, but I can't wrap my head around a good alternative.

I don't have strong feelings either way about going with themes, time periods, or some combination thereof. For those who are resistant to the chronological approach beacuse it's too boring to go in order (prehistoric, ancient cultures, medieval, etc etc), maybe we could start in reverse order, or skip around? For example, a month on the 19th century could be followed by a month on the Renaissance.

Renaissance is a Eurocentric theme. Time would be 16th century.

>21 MarthaJeanne: So you are envisioning something strictly numbers-driven, like "1900-1950" for March, "1600-1700" for April, and so on? Not that I have anything against that approach...just trying to figure out what different people have in mind.

I feel that if things are done by time period they should be listed by time period - yes, by numbers - not by a term that is only meaningful for a small part of the world. And again, themes should be worded so they can be interpreted for various parts of the world.

In the current GeoCAT, we've divided the entire planet into 12 regions, but for each one, we've had a focus theme or country. I think this has been working pretty well.

I'd like to see something similar for HistoryCAT. That is, we divide the entire timeline into 12 parts, and then pick specific events/themes for each time period. For example, we could have a month devoted to "16th century" with optional focus themes of the Renaissance and the Ming Dynasty.

I like the idea of alternating time period months with theme months, making sure that they're applicable worldwide. But I also think it would be nice to have optional focuses within the time periods/themes, like in this year's GeoCAT, and those could be more limited.

We could alternate time periods and themes, we're just discussing things at this point.

People who want to do time periods could maybe propose eras of interest, with possible focuses ?

The same for people who are in favour of themes ?

From what I've seen in the voting part of the CATs, the votes were largely influenced by more detailed suggestions :)

Shall we do a little voting to keep things moving? Keep discussing, but vote until the 15th.

Nevermind! I was way too quick and you weren't done putting up all the vote posts yet. :)

To me it's not a matter of it being boring to go in chronological order, it's the fact that going by time periods means either skipping out on very large chunks of history or compressing them into very small windows of reading time. History is a very long time...

>33 PawsforThought: Yup, that's what you said early on and I agree. It'd be picking & choosing tiny little pieces anyhow, it's not like one would actually get some sort of comprehensive picture of all history by reading 12 books spread over one year. Better to just acknowledge that it's going to be limited and try to do it in the way that is most enticing/motivating to everyone.

>34 .Monkey.: Yes. And that way people can pick parts of history and parts of the world that interest them the most, instead of having to sit out on months and months were there's a time period they're not that into.

I'm just starting to read through the thread, so I haven't yet read any replies.

1. Determine a structure. Do we want to go with time periods (1910-1920, 1800-1900, 1715, etc…), specific eras or events (WWI, Victorian Era, the Crusades, etc…), themes (war, disease, colonialization, etc…), something else, or a combination of approaches?

I was picturing a mix of all of these.

4. Find a volunteer for each month. Volunteers will need to set up a thread ten days to two weeks before the month in question. They'll need to provide an overview for the theme and suggestions of possible books, including both non-fiction and fiction.

I can probably do a month. Like with RandomCAT, I might need some guidance with this, though.

>30 RidgewayGirl: Vote: I like the idea of having each month based on a broad area, with an extra focus challenge alongside, like with the GeoCAT

Can someone explain this? I don't understand (and it has the most yes votes).

What is "area"? To me, that's a place. Then, what is the extra focus? This just sounds (to me) like a repeat of GeoCAT.

I think I need it clarified. Thanks!

LiibraryCin, more in the sense of a broad topic like Colonialization, with a focus on the Belgian Congo, or medicine with a focus on infectious disease or Spanish flu.

I read a lot of historical fiction and particpate in the Reading Through Time Challenge but I hope to be able to fit in this HistoryCat as well.

No matter how we set this up, history is a huge subject and we will only be able to read a very small chunk of it, whether by theme or time period. I look at this Cat as more of a sampling of history.

I do like the option that Paulina mentioned in >24 mathgirl40:. I like the idea of 12 different time periods with an optional theme to focus on much like the GeoCat was set up this year. In this way people can either join in with the focus theme or just read an historical book set in the chosen time period.

However we do decide to set this one up, I would be willing to host a month.

>39 DeltaQueen50: Of course, but the difference - the way that I see it - is that with themes people can pick books that most appeal to them easier than they could if we go by time periods. It's easier to "make" a book fit "medicine" than "1800s". If we go by time periods, there's no room for interpretation, but there is if we go by theme.

>24 mathgirl40: and >39 DeltaQueen50: I totally agree with this suggestion. I also love reading about history and I think this idea would enable a world wide history approach, with the specific focus topic within the time period being an added challenge for those who are interested in that.

Whether the approach is by theme or by time period, if we have an optional focus like we've done with the GeoCAT, many of the participants are going to end up reading about the same event/narrow time period. It's probably not going to matter for the majority whether the broad structure is theme based or chronologically based.

I'm going out on a limb there, but could we maybe do each month with a theme and a time period: the focus could be a combination of the two ?

If I remember well, for the GeoCAT, we decided on the broad subject first, period and theme for example, then we proposed 2-3 focus that we voted on.

We could discuss period and theme then later on decide on focus ?

Just something to think on ...

>41 Roro8:

This would be my preference as well.

>43 electrice: I really like that idea! Best of both worlds :)

Great idea electrice!

Personally, I'm good with whatever, but the combo sounds like a good plan.

I grew up hating history thanks to one particular teacher, so I've been attempting to overcome that for decades now. I'll find something to fit most months and if I don't I don't. No worries.

>>43 electrice: If we do a combo, and I read a book that only meets the time period criteria does it count or not?

>48 cyderry: Yes, it counts.

Sure. the idea is that a focus is a book that meets both but you could read a book that fits either and it would count.

ETA: much like the GeoCAT where you can read anything in that area, but the focus is on a specific area.

For those still confused about the combo, here's an example:

January has as a time period 19th century and a theme war. The focus would be war in the 19th century.

I could read First Comes Marriage, which is a historical romance set in the 19th century, with no war on the horizon at all. I could also read The Coin of Carthage which is set during the war between Rome and Carthage, because it fits the war theme. If I wanted to read a focus book, I could read The Black Flower which is a book set during the US Civil War and therefore has both the 19th century time period and the war theme in one book.

At least, that's what I got out of the thread.

>51 Samantha_kathy: If that's what's being suggested I'm okay with that. And so far it seems like a lot of people like the idea.

>51 Samantha_kathy: - That would be a great way to set it up.

I think it would be a great way to organize the CAT.

>51 Samantha_kathy: Now that you've explained the "combo" idea, I really like it! It requires a little bit more effort in the beginning, since we'd have to come up with a time period AND a theme for each month. But then the "theme" people and the "time period" people would each have something to focus on, and anyone who wants to attempt both is free to do so!

>51 Samantha_kathy: You read my mind, that's exactly what I was thinking when making this suggestion. I didn't had the time earlier to expand on the idea, so thanks :)

I'm happy that we seem to be favorable to the idea as we all are excited by the CATs. This way, as Zoe and Samantha said, we would all have the best of both worlds.

Let see what others think of this setting ...

55 > I think planning it would be easiest if we picked time periods first and then themes that would make sense if someone wanted to read a focus book that month. Picking 1900-1950 as a time period while the theme is colonization is perhaps not as good a combo as 1900-1950 and war.

Having said that, it might also be a nice idea if som of us volunteered a time period with theme and then we can see if there are double time periods/themes in there. It's usually easier to shift things around when there's already something of a list.

Possible themes (from the reading through time wiki)

Agriculture/farming
Human rights
Crimes & Mysteries
Communications (letters/telegraph/telephone/pony express)
Disasters
Discovery/Exploration
Education
Freedom
Heroes & Vagabounds of History
Medicine/Illness
Industry
Love/Marriage
Migration/immigration/New Beginnings
Royalty and rulers
Religion
Revolution in general/Regime change
Science
Transportation
War
Witchcraft

Possible time periods:

Prehistory
Ancient and Biblical Times - can be devided further
Medieval Times - can be divided into 500-1000, 1000-1500
You can also seperate all the centuries from later Medieval times onward:
11th century
12th century
13th century
14th century
15th century
16th century
17th century
18th century
19th century
20th century - can be divided into 1900-1950 and modern history (1950-2000/2001), which could include things like cold war and Vietnam war.

Mix and match! Let's get some combo ideas rolling.

I like this combination idea very much. I think it should work for everyone.

>57 Samantha_kathy: Thanks for getting the ball rolling!

I like the idea of moving from longer to shorter time periods as we get into more recent times, but I might make the change slightly more gradual. For 12 periods, something like:

Prehistory
Up to 500 BCE
500 BCE - 0
0 - 500 CE
500 - 1000
1000 - 1200
1200 - 1400
1400 - 1600
1600 - 1800
1800 - 1900
1900 - 1950
1950 on

Zoe, I took your time periods and tried to match them up with themes that would facilitate focus reads that combine the time period and the theme. I'm not entirely sure I succeeded, but this seemed to be good combinations.

Prehistory - Disasters
Up to 500 BCE - Agriculture/Farming
500 BCE - 0 - Crimes & Mysteries
0 - 500 CE - Religion
500 - 1000 - Love/Marriage
1000 - 1200 - Religion
1200 - 1400 - Royalty and Rulers
1400 - 1600 - Discovery/Exploration
1600 - 1800 - Witchcraft
1800 - 1900 - Industry
1900 - 1950 - War
1950 on - Science

>60 Samantha_kathy: Eh. Not too fond of that theme list. And religion is listed twice.

I know we all have our "favourite themes", and it's not possible to include ALL of them, but I would personally like to see human rights, communications, disasters, education, transportation (though that could surely be combined with communications) and medicine before agriculture, love/marriage, witchcraft, industry and religion.

Could we try to have some form of "culture" theme? Culture as in the arts, I mean, not societies.

Could witchcraft and religion be combined maybe? "Beliefs", perhaps.

The way it work for the GEOCAT was each of the volunteers for the area then made three suggestions for the focus which was voted on. So here I would think that we would have the volunteers claim a time period and then they would research/decide on 3 focus themes and we'd all vote. When I hosted a GEOCAT month I actually tried to read something from each of the 3 suggestions that I made for focus.

What's to say that we couldn't have more than one focus in a time period?

I'd be willing to take the 1900-1950 since I'm planning to read a bunch for that time period anyway.

>62 cyderry: But it's not the same as with the GeoCAT. We're supposed to be combining a theme and a time period, not starting with a time period and then having the theme as a focus. The combination is meant to be the focus.

I think that religion and witchcraft could very well be combined in he 1600-1800 time period. During that time there was a great deal of religious upheaval and witchcraft attacks/trials.

1800-1900 Colonization and industry

PawsforThrought, I tried editing the list. I combined witchcraft with religion/beliefs (and thanks for catching it was in there 2 times!). I shuffled some things around so I could add Medicine, I put transportation with discovery/exploration. Disaster was already in the list, but I changed the time period it was attached.

For the last two time periods, I now put in 2 themes. We could either vote which one we want to use there, or we could maybe have both of them (focus would still remain a combination of time + 1 theme).

I think I put in most themes now. If you see anything that could be combined, please say so! Especially a good theme for prehistory - I now have migration/immigration there. Disasters was first attached to prehistory, but then I thought it might be better in the 0-500 time period. Much of prehistory fiction is about migration of groups of people, or sometimes 'immigration' as in a small group splitting off and either joining another band or simply going somewhere new and building a life there.

Prehistory - Migration/Immigration
Up to 500 BCE - Agriculture/Farming
500 BCE - 0 - Crimes & Mysteries
0 - 500 CE - Disasters
500 - 1000 - Love/Marriage
1000 - 1200 - Royalty and Rulers
1200 - 1400 - Medicine
1400 - 1600 - Discovery/Exploration & Transportation
1600 - 1800 - Witchcraft & Religion/Beliefs
1800 - 1900 - Colonization & Industry
1900 - 1950 - War or Culture
1950 on - Science or Human rights

As always, input is very welcome! I'd love to make a list that (almost) everybody is happy with in the end.

I don't understand "Love/Marriage" as a "history" theme...

Arranged marriages for politics/between royalty, what role does love play in society in different time periods, people (mostly women) doing things to avoid marriage, and for those wanting a lighter read historical romance, are just a few things that link history with love/romance.

>66 .Monkey.: Me either.

>59 _Zoe_: I've not read so far, an opposition of the time periods proposed by Zoe:

Prehistory
Up to 500 BCE
500 BCE - 0
0 - 500 CE
500 - 1000
1000 - 1200
1200 - 1400
1400 - 1600
1600 - 1800
1800 - 1900
1900 - 1950
1950 on

Should we wait and see if it's agreed on before attributing themes ?

As for the themes, we should maybe try to define the themes that get the most willing participants. At the moment, here is what I've seen proposed. I tried to mix the suggestions and some of the combinations:

1. Human Rights (Freedom …)
2. Crimes & Mysteries
3. Communications, Transportation
4. Nature, Disasters
5. Discovery/Exploration (it can include Sea/Nautical and Colonization/Pioneers …)
6. Medicine/Disease
7. Human Activity: Industry, Agriculture/Farming
I’m suggesting this one because when I was in high-school, we had an introductory course on economy, human activity was subdivided in 3 parts: agriculture, industry and services
8. Migration/Immigration/New Beginnings
9. Revolution/Regime Change
10. Science
11. War
12. Beliefs: Religion/Witchcraft
13. Culture (Arts …)
14. Rulers (Royalty …)
15. Love/Marriage, Family
16. Education

So if there's no other categories that are a MUST for any of us, this could mean that we have to trim down the list of 4 categories ...

I'm not fond of 15. Love/Marriage, Family and 16. Education but it's surely because I don't really see what it could include and how it can be put in an historical perspective ...

14. Rulers (Royalty …) is something that I think will be done even if it's not a category. I mean that it's one of the first thing that I though of when I think history but that's only my opinion.

>69 electrice: I'm not really sure about having prehistory, up to 500 BC, and 500 BC to 0 as three separate categories. Can anyone make suggestions of books that would show the distinction, especially "prehistory" versus "up to 500 BC"?

The themes suggested so far are just the ones that are used by the Reading Through Time group, with one or two editions from us. There's nothing stopping us from completely making up our own themes, we don't have to use the ones RTT uses.

I propose that everyone (everyone who wants to/is interested in the themes) makes a post stating which themes they most want. Is 5 a good number? 7? 10? And then we pick the ones that get the most votes. We'll obviously combine things if they're close together and we can make adjustments if there are ties.

I don't see the point in assigning themes that people might not be interested in reading just because another group has used them and they could work with a time period.

70christina_reads > Usually, prehistory is counted as non-writing humans (and also everything before humans), while I think up to 500 BC is meant to includes ancient civilizations, like Egyptians.

Top 5 themes might be a good idea, and then tallying the votes. Maybe we could do the same with top 5 time periods? We don't have to read time periods in chronological order.

>71 PawsforThought: I had assumed that we'd choose a different theme for each month, for a total of 12. But you've made me think that we don't necessarily have to do it that way! For example, we could pick 6 themes and assign each to two different months. I wouldn't be opposed to that.

>70 christina_reads: I think you are right.
what about

Pre-history,
Ancient(maybe to 300)
300 - 700
700 - 1000
1000 - 1200
1200 - 1400
1400 - 1600
1600 - 1800
1800 - 1900
1900 - 1930
1930 - 1960
1960 -

Excellent ideas! Samantha_kathy, thank you for taking the initiative and coming up with such good combinations of times and themes.

Is everyone determined to have several months spent in early times? And is chronological the preferred order? I'm really not interested until at least 1700, so with the comprehensive approach, I'll be seeing you all in October! Unless Hilary Mantel releases the last Cromwell book soon, and then I can join y'all in September.

>73 christina_reads: I think we should definitely do one theme for every month. I highly doubt we'll be able to agree on just 6 themes. The more themes we have, the more likely it is that everyone gets at least a couple that they like.

Is everyone determined to have several months spent in early times? And is chronological the preferred order? I'm really not interested until at least 1700, so with the comprehensive approach, I'll be seeing you all in October!

Nope, you can join right from the beginning, if you pick a book that relates to the theme but not to the time period. (see message 51)

Well happy to see us moving forward :)

>71 PawsforThought: You're right, we would do ourselves a disservice if we don't take the time to suggest what themes we'll like.

>72 Samantha_kathy: Great ideas, why not choose the time periods the same way ?

I'm happy with 5, 7 or 10 ...

>75 RidgewayGirl: We could do things non-chronologically, it could spice things a little bit :)

I'll post my choices monday, at the latest. I want to sleep on it ...

I don't give a hoot about the time periods as I won't be going by them anyway, but I can understand why people might want to have fewer periods focusing on early history and more on the past 1000 years or so.

Alright, then.

Have a good long think about what themes you all are interested in reading and then post your 5 choices on the thread.
Should we set a stop date a week from now?

>80 PawsforThought: Seems fine to me ...

>72 Samantha_kathy: Yup, that's exactly what I was thinking about prehistory vs. early history.

Prehistory:
Clan of the Cave Bear (fiction)
Before the Dawn (non-fiction)

Early History (to 500 BC):
Mara, Daughter of the Nile (fiction)
Brotherhood of Kings: How International Relations Shaped the Ancient Near East (non-fiction)

It seems really strange to me to squish major civilizations spanning hundreds or thousands of years into a single month (e.g., Pharaonic Egypt and classical Greece), and then have three months for the twentieth century. But I'll live with whatever is decided, of course. Hopefully with the combination of themes and months, no one will be sitting out!

>73 christina_reads: That hadn't even occurred to me, but I actually really like the idea of choosing 6 major themes and repeating them. That would let us get a bit deeper into the topics.

Couldn't we lump all the ancients together til 40 A.D.?
that way we could cover all the ancient civilizations from Egypt to Rome, and areas Asia to Europe. Then it could be split....

BC - 40AD
40 - 1000
1000 - 1400
1400 - 1500
1500 - 1600
1600 - 1750
1750 - 1840
1840 - 1900
1900 - 1935
1935 - 1970
1970 - 2000
2001 - present

I just feel that the time span of the middle of the millenium was a time when so much was happening - exploration, arts, medicine and that we shouldn't try to squeeze it all together just because ancient history. I might read a book on the Roman Empire or Egypt, maybe Greece but I'm sure not going to do more than 1.
I also feel that the 20th century had so much going on, it needs more entries, same for the late 18th and all of the 19th century.

As for themes, I'd like to see something that would be related to how a theme changed over the years and how people affected it.

Communications - smoke signals to Iphones
Transportation - walking to bullet trains
Medicine/Disease - black plaque to ebola
Science - Greek mathematics to DNA
Space - Babylonian astronomy to landing on Mars
War - sticks to biological warfare
Beliefs: Religion/Witchcraft - Druids to Christian Science
Culture (Arts …) cave drawings to digital art
Rulers (Royalty …) - conquerors to elections

So maybe we could have 6 themes that were spread over the time frames to see advancements/improvements.

Just an idea...

I'd rather have more themes than 6, to be honest. Because you can read just themes (not time periods) and therefore we'll hopefully get a diverse look at the theme of a month.

As for the 2001-now time period, I think that's probably not a good time period on its own. If we want to read all the way to 2015, I'd rather we add it to the time period before: 1970-2014

>83 cyderry: Four months covering the past century? And one for 2001 forward? I can't remember what we say when we started discussing the HistoryCAT but I thought the modern day wasn't going to be included. I know there was talk about cut-off points being somewhere in the nineties and someone said 2001 because of 9/11 but I don't recall there being talk of continuing past 2001.

There was some discussion that a HistoryCAT should cut off before the 21st century. Some people wanted the cut off quite a bit earlier. http://www.librarything.com/topic/178982#4811439 ff

>85 PawsforThought: Sooo agreed. 1900-1950, and 1950 onwards is more than enough for the past century. This is a history read, not a current events read.

And just to add to the confusion...ah, discussion, I mean ;). I have another possible idea. Right now we're talking about a combo which is a defined time period with a theme attached, but why couldn't we do a theme with a (more narrowly) defined time period? For instance, War - Roman Era or Religion/Beliefs & Witchcraft - Middle Ages instead.

We could try to agree on 12 themes first (for instance by voting on the themes now suggested and picking the 12 with the most yes votes) and then either decide on time periods or let the volunteer for that theme set the time period, which can range from as broad as the Middle Ages (which is from th 5th to the 15th century) to something as narrow as 1900-1950.

That would mix things up a bit too, instead of going chronological. Even if there's some overlap (Middle Ages one month, 14th century another) that would still keep things interesting I think.

Just a thought...

It looks like the group consensus is that the reader selects either/both a title according to Time Period and Theme. Going by Comment 51, it looks like you can untether yourself from the Time Period by reading according to Theme and vice versa. This would leave the Event and/or Topic up to the reader. Is that correct?

And the HistoryCAT wants to include pre-history in its lineup? OK, there's a certain humorous irony in that that I like; but FWIW, while it seems ridiculous to crush millennia into one category factor, I think Ancient Civilizations has a whole would be a great starting point.

I love the Themes that cyderry has proposed; but less inclined to go a bi-monthly route. I like the idea of 12 themes especially if we can untether from Time Periods in this challenge. So maybe add three from electrice's list in Comment 69? I like Human Activity, Discovery/Exploration, and Beliefs myself :-)

>83 cyderry: Even before the European renaissance, there was plenty of exploration, arts, and medicine. Western history just tends to have a very Eurocentric (or North Atlantic) focus, so that major events happening elsewhere are often overlooked. I'd ideally like to fill in some of the blanks in my knowledge, not reinforce them.

I really like the idea of seeing how themes changed over the years, though.

>89 Tanya-dogearedcopy: I can definitely see the argument for excluding pre-history :). It all depends how you're defining history to begin with—wikipedia suggests "the study of the past, specifically how it relates to humans", in which case pre-history would make perfect sense.

I really prefer more early history and no more than two 20th century months. There are so many interesting things before 1900. I do want the 1900's but not at the expense of earlier time periods.

By the way, I love the image in the first post in this thread. :-)

>38 RidgewayGirl:. I guess that's not the same as broad themes, then? I guess the vote question about broad themes didn't mention a narrower focus. That's the difference between those? If that's it, I get it now! :-) Thanks!

>50 majkia: the idea is that a focus is a book that meets both but you could read a book that fits either and it would count.

Yes, I like this, too. More options for everyone.

>60 Samantha_kathy: Oh, I like these combos!

>65 Samantha_kathy: I'm good with the "revised" list here, too.

>73 christina_reads: I had assumed that we'd choose a different theme for each month, for a total of 12. But you've made me think that we don't necessarily have to do it that way! For example, we could pick 6 themes and assign each to two different months. I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Hmmm, I like 12 and 12 for more variety, but that's just me.

Alright, lets vote on the 6 themes vs 12 themes thing.

I like going chronologically. As someone mentioned, if someone isn't interested in the time period, they can go with the theme instead.

>91 _Zoe_: I'll go with whatever for history/pre-history time periods, but I agree with including them both, especially based on that wikipedia definition. I think "pre-history" is an odd term, anyway! ;-)

I would prefer less 20th century as well.

>99 PawsforThought: and >100 PawsforThought: Thanks for the vote Paws. This democracity business is hard work :)

Happy to see that we're leaning towards 12 themes, I would prefer more subjects to explore ...

Should we do the same for the time periods ? It seems that people would prefer to have 2 months at most for 20th century, more than one month for earlier history and that we're maybe still on the fence for pre-history ...

Earlier history would be I think something like from -5000 to - 500 (beginning of rulers of Egypt, Persia, China, Arabia ...).

Vote: There should be more than 2 months at most for 20th century

Vote: There should be more than one month for Earlier history

Vote: There should be a month for Pre-history

I don't know how to create the vote and if the formulation is adressing the most pressing points for time periods ?

Vote: There should be more than 2 months at most for 20th century

This has problems.

Either 'There should be 2 months at most for 20th century.'

Or 'There should be more than 2 months for 20th century.'

Rather than 'earlier history' I would use 'before ____'.
_____________

How to do things can be found at https://www.librarything.com/topic/177029

And each vote has to be in a separate message.

Ok thanks for the feedback MJ :) I'm going to check how to set this up ...

Let's vote for the 3 time periods which are a recurring subject in discussion:

It was proposed that we should each come up with 5 themes that we are interested in. These are my top five:

1. War - this theme would go with just about any time period as, unfortunately, there appears to always be a war somewhere. War of the Roses, the French Revolution, Korean War, WW I & II, Viet Nam, the Crusades just to mention a few. Books like Gone With the Wind, War Trash, The Road to Jerusalem, Gates of Fire, The Winds of War.

2. Exporation & Conquest - Roman, Greek and Persian Empires, Ghengis Khan, Vikings, the discovery of the New World, the western expansion of North America. , Eagle of the Ninth, Aztec, Wolf of the Plains, Panther in the Sky and The Long Ships would be some examples.

3. Lifestyles - I see this theme working for anything from historical romance to family sagas as well as books about women in different cultures through history. Books like The Twentieth Wife by Indu Sundaresan, Snow Flower and the Secret Fan by Lisa See, Women of the Silk by Gail Tsukiyama along with books like The Red Tent by Anita Diamant, The Blood of Flowers by Anita Amirrezvani, and authors like Kate Morton, Charlotte Bingham and Judith Lennox.

4. Medicine & Disease - From Egypian plagues to the Black Death, the Influenza Epidemic, and Cholera outbreaks. Books about how diseases and medicine influenced history. Fever 1793 by Laurie Halse Anderson, Year of Wonders by Geraldine Brooks, The Dress Lodger, The Great Stink, Beacon At Alexandria and The Fever Tree would all work here.

5. Culture - Books where art, music, dance, theatre etc. plays a significant role either in setting or plot. Some examples would be Girl with a Pearl Earring, The Painted Girls, Tipping the Velvet, Captain Corelli's Mandolin, and The Birth of Venus.

Judy, the explanation and books proposed in example are a nice touch. I'm looking forward the themes proposed by the group.

>110 DeltaQueen50: Ooh! We have our five top 5. Great, thank you. Also great to see explanations of them and examples added.

I'm not really sure what I think of the way things are going for this CAT. It was one I had high hopes for, but, at present I don't think I'll really be doing much with it. I just don't think I will have almost any books that apply. Oh well.

my themes suggestions

1. Archaeology and Anthropology

2. Fall of Civilizations/Empires (early and modern, eg Rome and Hitler but I can't figure out a word for it)

3. How Science changed the world (Galileo, Einstein, space race, medicine)

4. Cultural Conflicts (religious or political, within a society as well as between them)

5. Equality (the rise of education for the common people, women's vote, downfall of segregation and apartheid)

Such good ideas. I'm getting excited about this again.

The Themes I like best are:

1. Crime -- there's a lot out there, from historical mystery novels to true crime and everything from assassinations to Watergate.

2. Ordinary people -- history tends to focus on those in power, but I think it's more interesting to know how ordinary people lived. And this encompasses a lot of historical fiction, as well as memoirs.

3. Medicine and disease -- from the Bubonic Plague to the Spanish Flu to Ebola. There's quite a bit of fiction about people living through plagues as well. I wonder, would Doomsday Book count?

4. Colonialization -- This theme works in every time period, and there's a wealth of interesting fiction and non-fiction. Everything from the Romans to American homesteaders.

5. Exploration -- Polar exploration, the search for the Northwest Passage, Lewis & Clark, Dr. Stanley, mountain climbing -- there's plenty to choose from.

>115 RidgewayGirl: I wonder, would Doomsday Book count?
Yes.

Edit: I didn't realize this was actually a vote. These are just random comments; I'll vote later

So many good ideas! I could pretty much make a top 5 out of the ideas that people have suggested already: science, cultural conflicts, colonialization, exploration, equality....

The one I'd put on my list that hasn't been mentioned yet is religion (or maybe religion and beliefs), because that's played a huge role in history. The beginnings of Christianity, the rise of Islam, the Crusades, the Inquisition....

>110 DeltaQueen50: I like your themes!

Religion
Science
Food and Clothing
Equality
Medicine and disease

Crime
"Ordinary" people
Religion
Science
Equality

science
war
exploration
immigration
disasters/plagues

Just 5 themes...difficult to choose. But this would be my top five:

1. Crime & Mystery
2. War
3. Exploration
4. Science & Technology
5. Human Rights

My top 5 would be

1. Exploration
2. Medicine and disease
3. Colonialization
4. Crime/Mystery
5. Culture

My top 5 would be:
1. Crime/Mystery
2. War
3. Equality/Human rights
4. Immigration/Travel
5. Food/Fashion

Great to see so many people posting their favourite themes. Mine are as follows.

Medicine/disease: Doesn't have to be just about illnesses but about the medical field and professions tied to it. If there is a medicine theme I'll probably read Jennifer Worth's Shadows of the Workhouse, the sequel to Call the Midwife.
Equality & human rights: Voting rights, the suffragettes, LGBT rights, disability rights, etc.
Science: Such a wide field and full of interesting people. I've been meaning to read a biography of Nikola Tesla, this would be a great time for that.
Culture & the arts: Both performers and the people behind the scenes as well as specific productions or general interest.
Politics: could encompass a wide range of things: political figures and regimes, oppression of people(s), political movements. Some tie-ins with human rights, obviously, but not quite the same thing.

I'm liking all these theme lists! I don't think I'll have a problem finding something to read for most of them.

But I am a little confused about why we're only picking top 5 themes if we're aiming for 12 for the year. And is there going to be any official voting on the themes at some point, or is someone just going to count up the themes from these top 5 lists?

Sorry if these questions are dumb or already answered! Just trying to get a handle on what's happening here. :)

>126 christina_reads: We'll tally up the votes and pick the 12 themes that get the most votes. I'm fairly certain we'll get 12 themes, but figured making people pick their 5 favourites is better than having people pick 12. It can be very difficult to pick 12, and then the ones you really care about might be drowned out by ones you don't care much about.
This way it's only the themes people really care about that get voted on.

>127 PawsforThought: OK, I think I follow you...so there will be an official vote at some point? Or is making a top 5 list the way we vote?

In no particular order...

War
Religion
Medicine and disease
Science and technology
Art & culture

>128 christina_reads: I was thinking we'll just count the ones that people place on the top 5. If there are spots left we'll just ask for more suggestions. Having an official vote seems unnecessary to me when there are so many spots to fill. If it had been a matter of choosing 3-4 themes it'd be different.

My top 5 would be...

Communications - smoke signals to Iphones
Transportation - walking to bullet trains
Medicine/Disease - black plaque to ebola
Space - Babylonian astronomy to landing on Mars
War - sticks to biological warfare

My top 5 in priority order would be:

1. Equality and Human rights
2. War and peace (or merely war if peace could be incorporated into it)
3. Art and culture
4. Religion
5. Crime

I would definitely not want the topics to be too science-oriented -- i.e. we would not need both medicine and science.

I went through some of the history books in my TBR list, looking at what categories they'd fall into, and I was surprised by some of the results. Apparently communication is my favourite (Empires of the Word, The Riddle of the Labyrinth, Libraries in the Ancient World), when I hadn't even realized that that would be on my list at all.

So, these are my top 5:

1. Communication
2. Colonialization
3. Religion
4. Science
5. Exploration

I'm wondering if we shouldn't still have a voting process for the top 12 themes. I suspect there are people who aren't as vocal, or perhaps have seen their favorites already mentioned so won't post a top five, but would still like a chance to vote on the final 12. For example I never thought of historical mysteries as a theme, but if offered a chance to vote, I think that would get one of my votes.

On the con side, I do know this would take a lot of work to comb through all the suggestions and put up a vote.

What does everyone think?

My second question is how are we going to marry the themes with the time periods? One suggestion is to list the 12 themes, and assign the time period. People could then choose for themselves what theme they want to match with each time period.

>134 DeltaQueen50: I think that's going to be far too much time and effort spent. Will the end result be that different? I can understand if some people feel uncomfortable partaking in discussions but I do believe even very shy LT:ers will be able to make a post stating the themes they want to see.
And if people have seen all their favourites already posted (several times maybe), well, then their favourites will most likely be included and they ought to be pleased with the results. What will a vote of the yes-no variety really do? Make sure people can vote against something they're not keen on? That'll only breed resentment and irritation.

My top 5:

Religion
Travel (broader than exploration, but could include exploration)
Arts
Books (manuscripts, printing, publishing, libraries, etc.)
Domestic life

I would also like to see a voting process. We might not need to vote on all 12 because we're already seeing a handful of themes that show up on a majority of the lists that have been posted so far. I think voting would be the fairest way to select from among the themes with fewer mentions.

This has definitely drawn me in so here are my 5:

1. Science/Medicine/Disease - as a scientist, they're a continuum to me so I couldn't separate them.
2. Displaced, Dispossessed, Oppressed
3. Religion
4. Music
5. Communication

Although, in all fairness, I have some really interesting unread tomes in pretty much all the suggested categories so this is just my Well If You're Going to Make Me Choose list.

I did a quick count earlier today, and there were 8 clear leaders so far. After that, there were a lot with just a couple of votes.

I think the current voting process is fine as long as it produces clear results, but we might end up needing a runoff process for the last few themes. (Basically, what cbl_tn just said.)

I don't think we'd get significantly different results by adding a whole other step to the process and doing an extra round of voting for everything.

Yes, I agree. There appears to be very clear top contenders and a vote off for the remainder sounds fair.

There is also the idea of combining some of the themes so everyone's favorites would be included. For example it looks very much like Science will be a theme and archaeology and anthropology could be considered part of that.

Here are my top 5:

1. Science
2. Arts and Culture
3. Colonization
4. Domestic science (food, textiles, etc.)
5. Exploration

Voting for the spots left if we, as it looks now, end up with a few definite themes and a number of ones with fewer votes is fine with me. It's voting on all of them I don't like the idea of. But let's wait and see until all the votes are in. We said a week and we're only on day two.

>141 PawsforThought: That's true. I'm a bit of an eager beaver!

Could we pick a theme for ourselves and then read in that theme across several time periods? For example, I could see my self picking ordinary life as a theme and then reading A History of Private Life (there are five volumes) throughout the year. Another example, I'm currently reading The Sources of Social Power (four volumes) so I could pick power as a theme and read that across the appropriate age categories.

>143 March-Hare: Sure. If you choose to follow the time periods only it's completely up to you what kind if books you read in those times. If you decide they should all fit a theme of your own choosing, that's up to you. The theme-time period combo is a focus. You can pick just themes or just time periods if you want - I'm going to just go with themes.

Paws, I think we need to vote on the themes. The number of people voting clearly shows that most of the people interested don't post and I don't want them left without a voice in favor of those who post. Let's just quickly vote and see what everyone prefers and then there are no hard feeling later. We have time, and I'm willing to set up thirty separate votes if necessary!

Vote open until midweek next week. Keep making your five suggestions in the meantime and then on Thursday we'll either vote or just do a final count.

I like the idea of voting YES on only your five or six top suggestions, so as to only be choosing the ones we really want. What does everyone think?

As I already said, it's only been two days. Not everyone is as quick to decide as others. And not everyone goes on LT every day.

Right, but the majority of people who are interested do not post. We are inclusive and have to make this system work so those that choose not to post are not left out. And voting is the only way I can see to do that easily.

I don't get it. If they want to have input, they can post. They don't have to discuss things or whatever. They can pick the 5 things they want just as easily as they could click "yes" on a vote. It's their own issue if the purposely choose not to provide their choices here. Nothing is stopping them.

>149 .Monkey.: Some people don't feel comfortable posting and prefer to lurk. (I can understand this as I tend to lurk on other forums, even if I do post frequently on LT.) If we want to reach out and include these people, then having votes is a good way to do it. We may have people who are new to the challenge and don't feel confident posting yet but will participate more actively next year when they feel more comfortable with the group.

Also, I'm hoping that, with the vote, I can say yes to more than 5 topics. After all, we need 12 in all. I posted my top 5, but there were several more that I would have been happy to include. Kay, will we be voting for our 12 favourites?

It took me quite some time to feel comfortable enough to post in these challenges. The groups felt very cliquish to me at first, and I wasn't sure I'd fit in. Therefore I can understand others not wanting to post often. I'm glad we're voting and hope folks who feel like that now will be drawn in and feel less excluded from conversations that have been going on between folks who know one another better than they do.

I agree that if people want a say they can just post and that making a big deal out of it and having a massive vote is making a mountain out of a mole hill and being quite a bit more nursery school-like than I prefer. But have a vote if that makes everyone happy.

>>149 .Monkey.: >>152 PawsforThought: We are by no means forcing you to participate in a massive vote since you have already submitted your top 5, however, it seems that most people would feel more comfortable having a vote to allow a voice in the decision to all - posters and lurkers.

What we have so far (in progress)

Science ||||_ ||||
Medicine/Disease ||||_ ||
Science/Medicine/Disease |
Space |
Disasters/Plagues |


Domestic science (food, textiles, etc.) ||||
Ordinary people ||
Archaeology and Anthropology |
Lifestyles |

Travel |
Transportation|
Exploration ||||_ |
Immigration/Travel ||
Exporation & Conquest|

Displaced, Dispossessed, Oppressed |
Colonization ||||

Religion ||||_ ||

Arts and/or culture ||||_ ||
Music |

Communication |||
Books |

Crime ||||_ |

Equality and Human rights ||||_ ||

War and peace (or merely war if peace could be incorporated into it) ||||_ |

Politics |
Fall of Civilizations/Empire |
Cultural Conflicts (religious or political) |

Can't Exploration and Colonization be combined?

>155 cyderry: I think there's a significant difference in meaning (in fact, I voted for both separately), and they seem to be getting enough votes independently. The same goes for Science and Medicine: some people thought they should be combined, but at least one person listed both separately in their top 5, and both are strong contenders independently.

The bigger problem will be slight variations that are listed by only a single person.

>154 MarthaJeanne:
More than one person listed both Science and Medicine, and those are among the highest contenders.

I made a few assumptions about what people meant, and where it wasn't clear I tried to group similar ideas. I started from the bottom and worked up, leaving the names as I first came across them, but sometimes counting things that had been worded differently.

Those with over 5 votes are

War
Equality
Crime
Arts/Culture *
Religion
Exploration
Science
Medicine
Domestic life *

* These two are combinations.

Others that seem to have support are:

Politics
Colonization
Communication
Travel/Transportation

It seems to me that the lower ones fall into two categories and either pair could be combined.

>157 MarthaJeanne: Thanks! Too bad there are 13 rather than 12. I'd still be inclined to convert this list into 12 at the end of the original voting period (e.g., by making a "Travel and Exploration" month, as one of the two travel voters suggested), and then voting on whether it was acceptable enough to everyone. But I know we'll go through multiple more rounds to ensure fairness etc., and I can't really object to that :)

Yes, I think we need another count at the end of the week.

I wanted to see how things are shaping up. Also a list like this makes it easier for those who haven't yet posted to get their thoughts together.

I find it encouraging that we have come up with about a dozen main themes, and that they cover such a wide range of topics.

>153 cyderry: I am not going to renounce my vote just because I don't think a vote is necessary; I'm not stupid. If there is a vote I'm going to vote for what I'm interested in, especially since at least one of them is a theme not cry many others have mentioned.
Part of the reason for not having a yes-no vote is to not have to deal with the negativity that unavoidably comes with it. It's always a matter of "but so and so many people don't like that, shouldn't we respect that?" Doing a count only sees the positives. And if you don't like a theme you can just skip it.
And you can call me unsympathetic if you want but I think people who are grown up enough to take part in a forum that is based on discussions should be grown up enough to take part in those discussions if they have anything to say and want their voices heard.

Oh, one other vote, for the sake of completeness:

Lurker unlurking. :) Because I have two questions....

I am only going to be participating if my current reading plans fit with this CAT. I'm already structuring my reading around way too many things. Do you still want my input - top five, votes, etc.?

Am I correct in understanding that the themes will not be assigned to a month but participants can choose when to read a book that qualifies for the theme? If so, that greatly increases my chances of participating.

I thought the themes were being put with months. You don't have to do both, you can pick one or the other. Doing both together is this CATs idea of the "focus" like from GeoCAT.

>162 Her_Royal_Orangeness: themes will be assigned to a month. But if you choose to pick a book that doesn't match the theme but does match the time period also assigned to that month it will count. Your books only have to match either the theme or the time period. Doing both is an optional focus.

>162 Her_Royal_Orangeness: I definitely think you should still give input!

This is what I read that made me think the themes would not be assigned to a particular month...

One suggestion is to list the 12 themes, and assign the time period. People could then choose for themselves what theme they want to match with each time period.

I see now that it was only a suggestion for how to structure the CAT. Or maybe I misunderstood what it means.

>166 Her_Royal_Orangeness: No, it was just a suggestion. I don't recall anyone supporting it.

I am the one who suggested listing the 12 themes and then everyone choosing which time period to fit them in, but as Paws said no one picked up on it, so I think everyone prefers to have a theme and time period set. I find it a little confusing that one can choose to read (a) just a book set in the time period, or (b) a book that matches the theme or (c) a book that matches both the theme and the time period.

I like the way we are planning to do it. I think that if we chose just time periods or just themes we would lose a lot of participants. This way there are really two HistoryCATs running parallel, but with connectors. We can follow one or the other or both or switch back and forth.

CATs are optional. So if you don't think you'll be able to participate at all, your voice is just as important as someone who is planning on participating every month.

Likewise, if you like to post sixteen times a day or not at all. Your voices are equally important. Hence the voting. We'll list out all the options, voting will follow and the top twelve will be chosen. There are more than a few people for whom LT is their non-contentious, relaxing refuge and they prefer it to remain as such; avoiding all arguments outside of the strictly literary (and sometimes even then) is important to them. So, since it's not that big of a deal, let's allow them that.

As for how many you would like to vote for, voting is anonymous, so really you can make that determination for yourself. If you like only four, vote for four. If you like all of them, vote for all of them. Only YES votes will count. If there is a tie for the final spots, then we will have a run-off. If there is not a tie, we'll get away with only one vote. I would suggest on only voting for the ideas you really like, as opposed to every single one that looks okay, but, again, voting is blissfully anonymous and you can do what you want.

So please continue to list your top five suggestions in case the vote decides to do it that way. And if we decide on voting, then the choices will be from that list. Right now it doesn't make much sense to do a count, except that we like counting. : )

How are we going to match the themes and time periods? Another vote?

EDT: I meant how are we going to match which themes will go with which time period. I know it doesn't matter to everyone, but there will be many who want to read about the theme that is highlighted for the month's time period.

A good question! I think that we'll vote on whether the time periods should be random or sequential. We'll vote on whether or not to just assign the themes randomly or not -- some themes might naturally suit some time periods, so we can fit those together (by vote!) if we want to. Or not if we don't.

First, my top 5:
1. War
2. Lifestyles/Ordinary People (I see these as very similar from the descriptions)
3. Science (medicine and disease could easily fit here)
4. Crime
5. Disasters

Comments on some of the other discussions:

- My first inclination was to say we'll just use the top 5 for voting, but I also like the later suggestion of keeping the clear top ones and voting on the others.

- I also like the way we were planning. We pick one time period and one theme for each month. People can choose to read for the time period or the theme or a combination of the two, so one is the focus of the other.

- I also think that some themes will naturally fit better with certain time periods, but I'm ok with a vote for those that can fit anywhere.

My list:
1. War
2. Lifestyles
3. Medicine and disease
4. Crime
5. Disasters

>173 LibraryCin:, >175 LoisB: You two are practically twins!

>176 _Zoe_: great minds . . .

I haven't posted 5 because I wanted some time to think about it but here they are:

Discovery/Exploration
Science
Medicine/Disease
Arts
Migration/Immigration

>176 _Zoe_: LOL! I guess so!

I'm late coming into the group, but hoping to participate. I'm probably more likely to do it by theme than time period since I'm not sure how well my library/tbr mountain would lend itself to the time periods, but we'll see. Meanwhile, my top 5:

*Medicine/Disease
*Disasters (environmental, natural, political, etc.)
*Art and Artists (Books about arts, or about artists themselves with a focus on their work)
*Leaders (Books about Presidents, Humanitarian/civil rights leaders, Kings/Queens, Generals, etc.)
*Legends & Myths (Books either collecting representative legends and myths, or exploring a culture's legends or myths, or exploring a particular theme in myths/legends)

>180 whitewavedarling: You've got a couple there that sound interesting that I don't remember bring mentioned yet. :-)

>181 LibraryCin:, I knew a couple were overlap, but especially a Leaders category I thought might come in handy since it sounds like it would be useful for folks interested in a lot of different areas (politics, war, even technology). I'm excited that so many people are interested in reading about medicine/disease since that's usually one of my own personal challenges anyway.

>180 whitewavedarling: I was thinking of mentioning mythology myself, nice.

Oooh, I like Legends & Myths! That would definitely be in my top 5.

I've always tagged myths/legends as historical fantasy but if they qualify for this CAT they are definitely in my Top Five, which are:

war/conflict
crime/mystery
myths/legends
lifestyles/ordinary people
human rights

My top five themes are:

1. NATURE – Natural History & Natural Disaster
Natural History: The Invention of Clouds (Climatology), On the Origin of Species (Evolution), My Family and Other Animals (Zoology), Remarkable Creatures (Paleontolgy/Geology), Wicked Plants (Botany)
Natural Disaster: Pompeii, Katrina, San Francisco etc…

2. SCIENCE – History of Science, Science
History of Science: The Age of Wonder, The Disappearing Spoon, The Measure of All Things
Science: The Pleasure of Finding Things Out (Physics), The Boy Who Harnessed the Wind (Electricity), The Indian Clerk (Mathematics)

3. MEDICINE & DISEASE
Medicine: The Poisoner's Handbook (Forensic Medicine), Mistress of the Art of Death (Forensics, Historical Mystery), The Rise and Fall of Modern Medicine
Disease: The Ghost Map, The Demon in the Freezer, Year of Wonders, Cancer Ward, Doomsday Book, The Magic Mountain

4. FOOD & CLOTHING
Food: The Omnivore's Dilemma, Uncommon Grounds(Coffee), Food: A Culinary History from Antiquity to the Present
Clothing: Coco Chanel (Biography), Kimono, The Bayeux Tapestry: The Life Story of a Masterpiece (Embroidery)

5. ART
Artistic Movement, Artist, etc...

So here we go. There are 22 suggestions up for a vote. I've combined similar ideas and the wording can certainly be tweaked by the volunteer for that month. Voting is anonymous so you can do what you want, but try to keep yourself to five to twelve votes. Votes will remain up and active until the 24th of September. Feel free to discuss the options, change your vote before the deadline and make arguments in favor of your favorites.

That's all of them, folks. If you notice I've forgotten one, please add it to the vote or ask someone to put it up for a vote. The wording is awkward on a few, so concentrate on the idea -- names can be changed later. I intended to do it in alphabetical order but that broke down in the middle somewhat. In my defense, I just drove through central Munich in rush hour traffic with tons of construction. It's a challenge for this American, used to wide streets and a grid pattern! Also, I have poured a glass of Federweisser, a local wine that is only available for about a month as it is the new wine, just as it starts to ferment. It tastes like exceptional and slightly bubbly grape juice.

Here they call that Sturm, and it plays havic with my digestive system.

Prost!

Yes, I first tried it in Austria. My digestion is fine with it, but as it doesn't taste at all alcoholic, and is low in alcohol, I have been a bit unsteady after standing up after an evening spent with a frequently refilled glass.

Are we only counting yes votes? Or do no votes also count? (aka, do we only vote yes on 5-12 of them, or do we also vote no on those we don't like?)

Only YES votes. Vote for the ones you'd like to see featured, however many that may be. And let's avoid negative campaigning if we can. Assume there will be a few themes chosen that you will hate, but more that you'll be okay with and talk up the ones you'd like to make the cut.

Thanks for setting up the votes, RG! Here are my favorite choices and why I picked 'em:

-Culture/arts -- I just think this is a theme I would personally enjoy. It could cover anything from music to painting to theater to literature. So I could read a biography of Picasso, a novel in which Degas or Hemingway is a character, a book with a protagonist who's a concert pianist, etc.

-Crime/mysteries -- I love mysteries that take place in historical time periods, so I know I'd be able to read a lot of books from my TBR list! Nonfiction about historical mysteries and true crime would also count.

-Exploration/conquest -- There's just such a wealth of literature, both fiction and nonfiction, on this topic throughout history. (I would include colonization/colonialism under this topic as well.) I can't imagine having a HistoryCAT without it!

-Religion -- It's had such an impact on history and certainly continues to affect our world today. I love that books about the Crusades or the Salem witch trials or the current political situation in the Middle East would all fit this topic.

-War/peace -- Again, it's such a universal theme throughout history. And there are tons of novels set during wars and armed conflicts, so (as someone who reads mostly fiction) I'd have no trouble finding plenty of books!

-Equality/human rights -- To me, this would also include the displaced/dispossessed/oppressed topic. I think this would be an interesting topic for many of us, and there's certainly a ton of books (both fiction and nonfiction) that would fit!

>217 christina_reads: I voted the exact same way, Christina, and I added a vote for Lifestyles and one for Medicine & Disease. I was going to vote for Travel or Transportation but since I find these two very similar, I didn't know which one should get my vote.

I have to admit that even though I was one of the ones who really wanted time periods set, my thinking has changed and now I will probably choose my books according to the theme, and not worry about whether they fit into the set time period.

I found it hard to pick, as I quite like all of the themes. In the end, I voted for the ones where I know for sure I have books on my TBR stack that fit. I'm sure I can find books for all of them though, although I think I will try to read a focus book that combines time and theme, if I have one.

I'm going to state what I think about the suggested themes, and if anyone has a problem with some of them not being glowing recommendations, you can just skip reading.

Archaeology and Anthropology

Culture and the Arts
My absolute favourite. I'm a culture nerd and I could easily come up with enough culture & arts books to have a CAT consisting only of that. Culture is such a huge part of society and is very often neglected in favour of kings, wars and religious clashes.

Books
I don't understand why this would need its own theme. Could easily fit in with culture and arts, literature IS arts.

Colonialization
Not a theme I think I'd take part in, but there's obviously lots to choose from.

Communication
Yes. Wide range of things, from communicative devices like phones and telegraphs to railroads and the pony express. Could possibly be re-named "communication & infrastructure"

Crime and Mysteries
Not that interesting to me, but I can understand that it might be to others.

Displaced, Dispossessed and Oppressed
Not a fan. "Oppressed" could go in "Human rights" and the first two in "Immigration & migration".

Equality and Human Rights
Absolutely. Other big favourite. So much to choose from.

Exploration and Conquest
Meh. Exploration I could see myself reading on, but not conquests.

The Fall of Civilizations
Yes. Tons of interesting things to choose from and from all over the world and (at least almost) all periods of time.

Food and Fashion
I do find fashion interesting but not enough for a theme, and historical food is cool but I don't think I'd read a book about it. Not at the moment, anyway.

Immigration and Migration
Lots of things to read, but not a theme for me.

Leaders
There are individual people I'd read about, but I'd prefer to do that

Myths and Legends
Not interested. Doesn't really work with "history" for me. Myths could easily go with "religion".

Natural History
Very interesting, but not something I voted for. I'd prefer for this to be focused on human history.

The Lifestyles of Ordinary People
Most parts of "ordinary life" could probably fit into other themes, and I'm not sure there's much left after that. There aren't very many books written about "ordinary folks".

Plagues and Disasters
Hm, maybe. I'm assuming "plagues" refers to the "plague of locusts" variety and not medical ones, as that could go into that theme instead.

Politics
I was the first one to suggest this so I obviously like the idea. Lots to choose from, and a lot of "leaders" would go in here.

Medicine and Disease
YES! I have so many books on my TBR list that could work with this.

Science and Technology
Yes. I have a biography I really want to read, and there's such a wide variety of non-fiction books that fit. Time of A Brief History of Time?

Religion
I have zero interest in more or less all things religion so definitely a theme I'd skip, but I have a very strong feeling it'll be one of the final themes picked.

Space and the Heavens
As in astronomy? One of my favourite things in the world, but should

Transportation
I'd combine it with communication, but a good theme on it's own too.

Travel
No. Would be better to just go with "transportation".

War and Peace
Sure. Pretty much includes all of human history ever.

Out of curiosity, how are we defining "legends"?

The dictionary definition is "a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated." (Like, King Arthur and Robin Hood.)

But the dictionary definition for legendary is quite different - "remarkable enough to be famous; very well known." (Such as the Tudor Dynasty and Cleopatra.)

I find that my thinking tends to fall between the two definitions, something like "persons whose lives were noteworthy enough to be contained in historical records but not generally known by persons who are not historians or well-studied in the particular time period." (Like, Boudica and Grace O'Malley.)

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions?

>222 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Legend and legendary aren't the same thing, that's why the dictionary definitions are different. The theme suggested was "legends" so I'd assume legends (like Arthur, for instance) is what was meant. (Especially since it's paired with myths.) Real people whose life stories have been distorted into half-truths (that goes for both Cleopatra and Boudica) aren't legends, imo.

I don't particularly like the wording 'food and fashion', but I assume it means the same as food and clothing or food and textiles. Not in terms of what colour is 'in' this year, but that these are the things that we need to keep working on to live from day to day. Both food and textlies have been important elements in history.

From the development of new technology - the first drive belts were used on spinning wheels, much of the industrial revolution had to do with making cloth, and the jaquard looms were part of the prequel to our modern computers. Even today we are still developing new fibres to improve our clothing.

Much of the history of trade is concerned with textiles as well. For example, the silk road. And the spice trade was another driver of trade. (And conquest!)

>222 Her_Royal_Orangeness: This isn't a theme that I suggested but I do find it interesting so I checked with my on-line dictionary and got the following definitions:

Legend:

“a popular story handed down from earlier times whose truth has not been ascertained”

Myths:

“a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature. “

I think these are fairly wide open definitions and would allow the reader to decide whether a certain book would fit or not. I could see all these following books as fitting:

- The Swan Maiden by Jules Watson - Irish Celtic Legend
- The Memoirs of Helen of Troy by Amanda Elyot - Greek Mythology - 1100 B.C.
- The Skystone by Jack Whyte - Arthurian Legend - 5th or 6th century
- The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller - Greek Mythology

As so very little is actually known of Boudica I would consider her story a legend.

Also, I think, legends about characters such as Robin Hood, Zorro, Paul Bunyon, Tarzan and St George (of the Dragon fame) would all fit here.

I just want to say that I'm really excited about this CAT! I think all the proposed themes are good, and even though not all of my favourites are going to make it (poor Communication), that's what the time periods are for :D

>223 PawsforThought: Yes, they are obviously two different words. I just didn't think adding an "ary" would so drastically alter the definition.

>225 DeltaQueen50: Thanks for the explanation and the examples. So are you saying you agree that "real person that little is known about" would count as a legend? I'm assuming this based on what you said about Boudica, and the fact that you included St. George in the list of characters.

>227 Her_Royal_Orangeness: There are numerous "real" people in history where very little is actually known about their lives. Their stories have developed over the years and is often more speculative than actual fact. So yes, I would say these would count as legends.

Paws and PM, I am really sorry that voting on themes is offensive to you. More than twice the number of people who post on this thread have voted. I understand, somewhat, the feeling that if they aren't willing to argue and fight for their choices they shouldn't get a say, but that's not how the CATs are. The CATs are as inclusive as they can possibly be, given the diverse group of people participating. Invariably, no one gets entirely what they want, but by voting on ideas instead of having them chosen by the most out-spoken members of the group, we can accept the outcomes because we see that the majority has voted for it.

The Category Challenge group gets bigger every year. If the CAT decision-making process makes you unhappy, maybe you might want to design your own side challenges, either as KITs or as it's own thing? Then you could run the process properly and not worry about those people who choose not to speak out, but vote and then participate happily in the CATs. It's not like there isn't room for more side challenges! On a cultural level, in the US, negative campaigning is an ugly, unpleasant fact of life that leaves everyone feeling like they want nothing to do with the topic in question. You are so lucky that that is not true for you! But can you understand that it might make the CATs less attractive to many in the US?

This is my third year doing this, and each year one or two people are upset at either my high-handed ways, or with my over-reliance on consensus. I'm doing my best here to allow everyone a part in shaping the result, but I'm aware that there is enormous room for improvement. Unfortunately, the areas of improvement needed are often in direct contradiction with each other. If you have suggestions for how I can improve the process, please feel free to send me a message on my profile. I will take all comments seriously.

Have you seriously never considered pro and con when deciding something? Trying to slur it as "negative campaigning" rather than simply discussing all aspects of a thing and why it doesn't work (for at least some people) is ridiculous, it is not this horrendous "ugly" thing. This whole silencing aspect is what has royally pissed me off, not the time-wasting extra voting sessions. You are going far above & beyond to make sure some group of people who supposedly are terrified of speaking in the group get "heard," and yet those of us who do speak, you want to silence. Well, that doesn't sit with me at all. You don't have to bother responding to my "negativeness," there's nothing to discuss here, just continue along your merry way.

As I mentioned, PM, it's a cultural thing. Paws spoke eloquently against mentioning negatives earlier. i'm sorry you are royally pissed off. That's a lot of anger for a side challenge supposed to be fun.

Please, please, please direct your anger to me personally on my profile and leave this thread for the challenge itself. Your problem is with me. Don't try to derail the challenge because you are pissed off at my time-wasting and your mistaken perception that I am trying to silence you. I am at loss as to why trying to be inclusive is so offensive to you personally and I am sorry that you feel that way, but it isn't silencing to allow everyone an equal vote. Quite the opposite, in fact. You take offense quickly, and I can understand being sensitive to perceived slights. For myself, I've found it useful to walk away for a bit, do something fun for yourself and return when you can see things more calmly. And if you're still outraged, let me know on my profile. I will listen to you and promise to answer, although I will not be home for most of the day, so please don't attribute a delay in the response to callousness or animosity on my part.

And now can we please return to the important issues of discussing our favorites?

>229 RidgewayGirl: (and >231 RidgewayGirl:)

So rather than considering changing the way things are done, anyone who disagrees should just go off and do their own challenge? That's a fine way for democracy to run.
Using phrases like "negative campagning" is just another way of saying "we can only speak well of things". Which is bullshit. You have to be allowed to bring up to discussion things you don't like and the reason why you don't like it. It's one thing to ask people not to throw mud or to refrain from just going "That theme is shit!", but critiquing is incredibly important and can be a great way to improve things. If you can't handle people having opinions on your ideas or expressing ways of improving them, you have a very difficult life ahead of you. And I've never come across anyone on LT who isn't 18 or older. We're all adults here, we can handle it. And anyone who can't - it's about time they learn.

We have voting in other countries except the US, you know. There are quite few nations in the world that doesn't have voting. I don't have an issue with voting on things, and I never claimed to. It's the incessant need to vote on everything ever that I dislike. Rather than voting on the big issues and then hashing out the rest with the people who actually care enough to speak their mind.
And this supposed mass of people who don't dare to raise their voices, how do you know where they come from? If they never talk, why should you assume they are from the US? Just because a lot of (the vocal) people on LT are from there, doesn't mean everything we do has to be done "the American way".
And I especially dislike the pandering to people who've not expressed any will to be pandered to. If people feel their opinions aren't being taken into consideration, they NEED to speak up. That is how society works. Only in primary school do you listen to absolutely everyone and let absolutely everyone have a say. The rest of society doesn't (and can't) work that way.

I'm not going to go off and discuss things on your thread because this is an issue for the CAT itself, not a single person. This is something the whole group needs to know.

Look, there is no reason at all for you to not set up your own side challenge. And to run it in the way you see as clearly better. Go for it. Just don't ruin this challenge out of spite.

As for how I know that a few people were unhappy? They let me know, quietly, on my profile. They were uninterested in conflict, but are equally invested in this CAT. That is why I stepped in and put things to a vote -- because that reduces unhappiness and conflict to a clear decision with everyone given an equal say. Incidentally, at least one person was not from the US, but i was using that as an example to ask for a bit of sensitivity to the feelings of others.

Voting is how people can speak up as far a decisions for the CATs are concerned. Period. If this is anathema to you, set up your own side challenge. We are a big, diverse group and there is certainly room for more successful side challenges.

As a final note, the idea for the CATs was mine, refined and improved by the generous and patient input from the many people participating. Some are willing to speak out loudly, some prefer to help out behind the scenes and others participate by voting and participating in the CATs themselves. That is how they function best. If this is not something you care to sully yourself with and feel that this is too immature an approach, you are, again, welcome to do your own thing. While I do want everyone to feel happy, if that's impossible, it's best to understand that the process for determining the CATs will not change unless a clear majority want it to. And that means more infantile voting nonsense.

I'd suggest putting it to a vote, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be acceptable to you! : )

>233 RidgewayGirl: We're not trying to "ruin this challenge out of spite". We're trying to make it better, and not weigh everything down by voting on everything because it slows down the process unnecessarily. And telling people to go off and do their own thing because they disagree with your opinion is bullying. Straight up.

Pot meet kettle.

I'm being a bully because I am pointing out that I have a right to speak my opinion and that if people disagree with it they should speak up too? Great.

The thing that you fail to see is that you have not been silenced. After all, you continue to post. You can choose to continue to participate here, if you like, or you can move on, if you like.

And just so we are talking about the same thing, this seems to be the request that started the concern: "And let's avoid negative campaigning if we can.

The label "negative campaigning" was ill-advised but the overalll tone hardly implies that people shouldn't speak up if they feel the need.

Since the beginning, some of us have express their opinions on the different suggestions; some by saying when something was to their liking, other by talking about the pro and con and other by voting. Some by doing all the above :)

I feel like people who are expressing their opinion by developping why an idea is agreeing with them or not, are labelized as argumentative. In my opinion, being argumentative is not a bad thing, it's a way to be which is as legitimate as not being.

I know that we all have different sensibilities about how a discussion should be going but why cast aside people who like to express why some suggestions are not going to work for them ? They also express why an idea is working. It's their opinion and is legitimate.

People should have the right to express fully their opinion, being pro or con. At the end, it does not change the fact that the majority, and rightfully so, will have the final vote. Not agreeing with some processing of the discussion does not mean that one does not agree with the democratic part of the group.

ETA If we don't discuss why some suggestions are not working for some of us, how can we develop why it could maybe be a great thing ? This could mean that a not so popular idea could become so ...

I'm dissapointed by the way that things are going. I was the one to propose a mix of themes and time periods for example but it feels like a waste right now, because I wanted to open the discussion and help us to move forward.

Let me be clear, I like that Paws and PM are always arguing why they agree or not with something. It's a vital part of discussion to improve the final voting.

There, it's said :)

>237 March-Hare: I didn't say I had been silenced. I said I'm being told to either be positive or go away. Paraphrasing a bit but that's the message I'm getting. People telling me to stop doesn't mean I'm going to stop. It is making me feel like shit, though.
I love the Category Challenge, it was the first group I joined when I came on LT and I really like the set up. I love the idea of the CATs, it's just the kind of thing I'm into and even if I haven't always participated that much in the actual reads and I'm really fond of them. But the tone that's being set especially in this CAT (it's not the same in the others and it's quite the opposite over in the Bingo) is just too much.

>238 electrice: Thank you.

>239 PawsforThought: You're welcome. You just express what I feel, it's a Yes or don't speak approach, it's not working for me either ;(

>239 PawsforThought:

But isn't telling you to go away a form of silencing you? The effect is the same. I still don't think either of those things was intended by the initial suggestion to avoid negative campaigning.

>238 electrice:

But isn't describing someone as argumentative just another way of freely expressing an opinion? And this is the very thing that you are valorizing.

>241 March-Hare: Me being silenced would be me actually going away. And I'm not. Trying to silence isn't the same as succeeding in it.

And I believe electrice meant that other people are using the term "argumentative" (or synonyms thereof) as something bad, a slur even, whereas she means it as something good.

I was one of the people who didn't think it was necessary to vote on all of the categories when there were some really obvious winners already, but having the vote doesn't bother me. The results should be essentially the same anyway (the whole point of saying that another round of voting was unnecessary was because I thought many of the results were already determined), and we were probably going to have a run-off in the end for some of the closer categories, so this doesn't actually take any extra time.

I do think that the preliminary round of listing was really valuable; limiting it to five meant that only the most appealing categories made it into the voting, so I think we'll have a good group of categories no matter what.

I disagree strongly that we should only be allowed to make positive arguments. So if I think of some compelling reason why one category isn't appropriate, I'm just going to say it anyway. That can still be done in a constructive way.

That said, I don't really have a problem with any of the categories; I think doing the preliminary list round was really helpful in getting it down to a strong set of contenders.

If I did want to nitpick about the process, I would point out that one of the major suggestions for method was ignored (keeping the clear winners and just voting on the ones that weren't obvious); since it wasn't one of the initial polls, it didn't end up with as many votes as the first two, but the votes that did happen showed stronger percentage support for that method than for either of the others. There was only 14% opposition expressed (23% with undecided), as opposed to 28% opposition for the method that was actually used. So, if I were inclined to be upset, I would say that democracy was only being used when it supported the preferred view.

In this case, though, I don't really care because I don't think it makes much difference in the results.

Also, I don't think that storming off in a huff because things didn't go your way ever leads to a positive outcome.

Right, it's not the part that I'm not happy about. It's a great thing to say that a way of doing things is not working for whichever reasons. What I'm not happy about is that some people are saying that being argumentative is being negative.

If some people express themselves by:
voting, it's ok,
expressing pro opininion, it's ok
expressing con opinion, it's ok.

What is not ok, in my book, is stating that expressing con vote and explaining why is not ok.

All opinions should be allowed.

Just to chime in here, as I feel a bit guilty since it was my question about if only yes votes would be counted that sparked this, I think there's a vast difference between expressing a con opinion and negative campaigning. Saying "I did not vote for Books because I have no books on my shelf that fit that theme and I think it could fit into the Culture and Arts theme" is very different than writing several paragraphs about how bad and stupid Books is as a category. (Just as an example).

And while the original request to avoid negative campaigning - as in, continuously and at lenght explaining why something is a bad idea - might have been poorly phrased, it was not in any way saying there were to be no con opinions expressed at all. To quote from the first voting post: "Feel free to discuss the options, change your vote before the deadline and make arguments in favor of your favorites."Feel free to discuss the options, change your vote before the deadline and make arguments in favor of your favorites."

>I>Discuss the options, as in give pros and cons for options, state why you don't like them and how they could be changed/folded into something else. All allowed and encouraged. No one is getting silenced. Just don't heap abuse on an option that other people might really like (as it's likely to hurt the, whether you meant to or not), that's all.

I would like to hear people say why a theme won't work for them, or why they think it would be better to fit it in with another, more comprehensive theme. It helps me picture what some of these themes will look like. At the moment several of them are clear as mud to me, not because I don't understand the theme, but because I'm unclear on how it will fit in with a HistoryCAT.

The only negative posts that bother me are the folks that say flat out they don't like how things are proceeding and are going to withdraw from the challenge altogether as that feels kind of like 'I'm taking my ball and going home if things don't go my way.'

Let's all take a deep breath and just deal with things as they are, and try to avoid personal slights and comments and stick to comments on the themes and time periods themselves.

I think books also fit into the communication theme, maybe even better than in culture and the arts. I wish communication were doing better.

Today we are used to getting information within a few hours of when things happen, but it was a big deal when telegraphs made it possible to send detailed messages faster than people could carry it. Relays of runners or riders could carry messages faster than an individual could travel. Fires and bells could give a general alarm, mirror flashing, flag signals and semaphores were a better method over short distances.

A few books that look interesting:
Send it by Semaphore
The Knowledge Web
The Victorian Internet (telegraph)
A Thread Across the Ocean (Transatlantic cable)

>245 Samantha_kathy: I totally agree with what you said. In Canadian politics, "negative campaigning" doesn't mean saying something critical about an idea but going beyond that and using a tone that could be offensive to some. There's a big difference between saying, "I don't think this idea will work because its scope is limited," and "Why on earth would anyone choose such a narrow topic?" On this thread, I've seen too many instances similar to the latter.

I admire people who are brave enough to promote their views with confidence. I can only do that after I've been with a group a long time and feel comfortable there. For some, a "negative" remark about their ideas could very well discourage them from ever speaking out again. I don't really speak for her, but I think RidgewayGirl just wants to tone down the negative comments, not shut down all discussion. For example, I thought that what was written in >221 PawsforThought: was fine, and I wouldn't call that "negative campaigning".

Some things I voted no on because I thought they could be combined with other options or they seemed too similar to other options. For example, leaders and politics or travel and transportation.

I see travel and transportation as different themes. Travel for me tends to include books about Marco Polo, or young English gentlemen doing the Grand Tour. Transportation makes me think of clipper ships racing to bring the first cargo of the new season's tea, or camels carrying silks across Asia.

(No, I'm not going to look for books to fit. That last one already added to much to my BD wishlist.!)

>226 _Zoe_: I voted 'Yes' to poor Communication. I feel a big need to catch up on some of the language-related books on my shelves.

I think they're all good categories. I just voted 'Yes' to my selection because that was requested but I have no issue with 'No' votes. I like to see the debate and I think hearing why people didn't vote for something is interesting and can be done without being unpleasant - opinions vary and that's what makes it interesting. Really, I think the 'how we got there' is less important than the 'what a great, diverse list of topics'. I'm pretty sure that there will be some interesting bookish discussion stimulated by all the categories chosen, which is the main aim right?

I voted for the Fall of Civilizations. However, if this gets in, I'd be happy to see the category encompass civilizations/empires in general. To me, the growth/development of the civilization or the examination of a civilization in its prime are just as interesting as the fall of the civilization.

So, back on topic, discussing the topic under vote. While I like all of them in some way or another, I can roughly devide them into three groups: the definite yes votes, the maybe yes votes, and the ones I am unsure about as a theme.

Definite yes:

Colonialization: this is something of all times, from the Romans and Genghis Khan conquering new lands and colonizing them (making them part of the empire) to the British Empire where the sun never set, there's plently to chose from. Personally, I would also include decolonization in this topic as it's the other side of the coin.

Crime and Mysteries: easiest choice of them all. Aside from the fact that I love historical mysteries, there's a lot here to explore for everyone. From true crime stories to new detective techniques - the Victorian-Edwardian mystery series by Susan Wittig Albert, for instance, where new techniques like fingerprints and (crime scene) photographs are only just beginning to get used and are distrusted/unknown to police and judges alike. I think that whatever time period you choose, there's a mystery/crime story set in that period.

Equality and Human Rights: from slave uprisings in Ancient Rome to anti-slavery movement in many parts of the world to suffragette movement, to equality between white and black people in the US and South Africa, to prosecution of Jews in the Second World War to gay rights movement, there's a wealth of books out there to fit this theme.

Exploration and Conquest: perhaps some of the things I mentioned under Colonization would fit better in this theme under Conquest, like the Romans and Genghis Khan, but I think it's the focus of the book that determines this. Is it about acquiring new land it should fall under this one, and is it about integrating (or suppressing) a country/region as the victor it would fit under Colonization. And of course, Exploration is from all ages too, although the big sea voyages come to mind immediately. Lately I've come across a few books about the race to reach the Antarctic in the beginning of the 20th century. Also exploration. Much to choose from with this theme. Although I would not want this theme directly before or after Colonization, I wouldn't mind having both themes in the HistoryCAT at all.

Leaders: also a definite yes. I like it a lot because it includes all types of leaders, from warlords and generals to politicians and presidents, to dictators and royalty. Applicable to all time periods and plenty of books to choose from.

Myths and Legends: a bit of a selfish vote, since I've got quite a few Robin Hood books in my TBR stack as well as a King Arthur book. All these books try to imagine how the 'real' Robin Hood and the 'real' King Arthur would have been - they're fairly brutal, actually, given the time periods involved and not at all the romanticized version.

Politics: Not at all the same as Leaders, although I'd imagine there are books that overlap. Colleen McCullough's books about Rome have a lot of politics in them, while they're also about leaders in a way. But books about constitutions being made, parliament members, diplomacy in foreign countries, they all fit in this theme.

War and Peace: plenty of books to choose from for this theme. From old wars in Ancient Times to the great, famous wars like the US Civil War and the two World Wars, to more modern wars like the Vietnam War and the war against terror. I like that it includes Peace, for those who don't like to read about wars (although home-front books are good for that as well), as it can include peace negotiations and the aftermath of war - the rebuilding, as it were.

Now, the ones I voted yes for where I'm a little bit more unsure about the theme. I think these are interesting, but am not sure I'd have books for them.

Travel: this is a category where I can see myself reading books from, but it also depends on what counts. A sea-travel to get to a new country would count, I guess. As would books about train journeys or getting some sort of travel route established. But where do you draw the line? Would a book about Columbus sailing the ocean count for travel? A book set on a war ship? There's travelling involved, but would it count as Travel? So I can see the potential in this, hence the yes, but I would like to see it somewhat more clearly defined.

Immigration and Migration: I voted yes for this, as I like the theme. Especially the fact that Migration would go very well with many prehistoric books that I have on my TBR stack. But for some reason I'm a bit more unsure about this theme. Maybe because aside from the prehistoric migration books I can't think of any historical migration/immigration books. Just present day immigration stories.

The Lifestyles of Ordinary People: I like this theme in principle, but I think it might be more difficult in practise. All books are, in the end, about something (someone) extraordinary, a not-everyday situation that holds our attention. So how would we define Ordinary People? Would Empress of Ice Cream count, as it's for a large part about an ice cream maker working at court? Or would that be too extraordinary? A midwife emigrating to the US? A frontiersman who gets adopted by an Indian tribe? Where do we draw the line between ordinary and not-ordinary. Is it about the social class of someone, their actions, the entire storyline? Clarification on this issue would greatly help me decide if I'll leave my yes-vote up or take it down.

Plagues and Disasters: good theme, although there's an awful lot of overlap between PLagues and Medicine and Disease. Of course, I am assuming we're talking Black Death-like plagues here, large outbreaks of disease that turn into disaster for the people affected. But the Disasters part I am wholly behind. Earthquakes, vulcano eruptions, tsunamies, famine (Irish Potato Famine, anyone?), all distasters that are interesting to read about. I'm just wondering if maybe we should take the Plagues part out if Medicine and Disease is also voted in as one of the 12 themes.

Medicine and Disease: Interesting theme in principle, but I might not actually find so many books that I'd like to read. On the other hand, there's a series or two that I'm either reading or plan to read with a doctor in the main role that are historical, so I can go for this theme.

Religion: also interesting, but most of the books I read religion is a factor, not the main plot point, as I would expect it to be in a book that counts for this theme. So I might struggle to find a book for this theme. On the other hand, there's several mystery series I'd love to read that have a nun or priest as the main character. So if that counts, then I'm in!

Now, for that didn't get my yes vote. In principle I don't dislike them, but some leave me confused and others I think would work better as part of themes already mentioned.

Archaeology and Anthropology: this is one of the ones that leave me confused. While archaeology and anthropology have to do with the past, and non-fiction books about this are fine for this challenge, I struggle to see how historical fiction would fit into this theme. would we need to find books about historical archaeology/anthrolology? I like these two sciences, but I'm just unsure what I could read for this, since I want to do this CAT with historical fiction, not non-fiction.

Culture and the Arts: not against this theme, but I know I struggled a lot to find a book in the Reading Through Time group to fit the Art theme we had not that long ago. What would count as culture? What would count as Arts? Some more explanation and some book suggestions (not about painters) would probably help me get enthusiastic about this theme.

Books: lovely theme, but I think it's too narrow to stand on its own. I think it would be great combined with Culture and the Arts, though.

Communication: a nice theme, but like with Books I feel it would do better when combined with Science and Technology. I do realize that things like letters might be excluded that way... So, unsure about this one. On its own? Combined? I just don't know.

Displaced, Dispossessed and Oppressed: I feel this is somewhat of a double category. Parts of it are also part of Equality and Human Rights, parts of it are part of Colonization, it's also in Exploration and Conquests, as well as in War and Peace, and in Migration and Immigration. As a stand-alone theme it's a good theme, but I feel it has overlap with so many other themes that already have my vote, that I didn't vote for it.

The Fall of Civilizations: this is one of those themes that I would like some more explanation of. What would count as the Fall of Civilizations? Books set in the latter part of civilizations, like books set in the last years of the Roman Empire? Decolonization books? I'm just...really unsure as to how this theme would work, since one civilization ends and another begins, seamlessly. How is this being envisioned?

Food and Fashion: someone in this thread said this might be better called Food and Textiles, which I agree with. I can see books on my TBR list that would fit this. The Empress of Ice Cream, for instance, is about (you guessed it) ice cream (despite the political scheming) and a book like The Dressmaker would probably fit Fashion/Textiles. Agriculture also fits here. A great theme, really, but I had many yes votes already and I like them more than this theme. Still, I wouldn't be at all sorry to see this theme make it to the final 12.

Natural History: would this not fall under Science and Technology (given a broad definition of Science)? Some books might fit under Exploration and Conquest. (Think Charles Darwin's travels). Other than that, I'm not entirely sure what kind of fiction books would fit this theme.

Science and Technology: a good theme in principle, but how broad are we taking science? Are we counting all science, from languages to psychology to physics, to alchemy? The same with technology. Are we counting the invention of the wheel? Ploughs, new ship designs, the coming of electric light? Basically, I would like to know how broad/narrow this theme is going to be.

Space and the Heavens: interesting theme, but would it not be included in Science and Technology already? Studying the heavens would be science, space travel (the space race!) would fit under technology.

Transportation: ah, same dilemma as with Communications. Transportation could fit under Technology, under Travel, and maybe under Ordinary People. Also, I'm really unsure of finding books that fit this theme, as it seems rather narrow. Transportation is part of the story a lot of the times, but how much of a central point should it be? Sea journey to a new continent? Exploration travels? Life on a war ship? When does it fit Transportation and when doesn't it?

So, that's all of them. Like I said at the beginning of this post, there's really not a single theme I dislike. But there are favorites (of course) and some where I would like some clarification as to how broad/narrow it would be.

I'm the one who suggested archaeology/anthropology. there are a ton of non-fiction books on this of course, but also quite a few fiction titles. Bone River comes to mind, as does many sci fi/thrillers like James Rollins Sigma Force series, the last one I read The Judas Strain being about Marco Polo and how perhaps he brought a disease back with him. Other books in the series are on similar themes, bioterrorism, technological breakthroughs, that sort of thing, going back to ancient Egypt, or China etc.

This tagmash is a limited example: https://www.librarything.com/tag/archaeology,+fiction

But aren't those books about history, set in modern times? To me, that seems to fall a bit outside of the idea for this CAT. Having said that, should the theme be chosen I could come up with novels like the ones you're describing, no problem. But I thought we'd discussed a cut-off date for historical fiction somewhere early in the discussion? Did we ever decide on one?

Either way, I see this theme being problematic for those wanting to read purely historical fiction, not non-fiction or fiction about history. Although the Amelia Peabody series (I think that's what they're called) might fit this theme. Wasn't she an archaeologist? I think they're set in the early 1900s....

>253 Samantha_kathy: Wow, thanks for posting your thoughts. You convinced me to change a couple of my votes. :-)

#255 by Samantha_kathy> Yes, Amelia Peabody would fit, as would Bone River, The Egyptologist etc. If you don't want to include current day folks digging into the past, fine with me.

Sure, say they fit and make it even more difficult to vote ;). *snorts* At least if Archaeology and Anthropology gets chosen as a theme, I'll finally have the excuse I need to start the Amelia Peabody series (like I don't have enough series already).

I could do that theme (archaeology) with non-fiction for most time periods but with fiction one would be fairly limited in choices for many of the time periods. However, there are a lot of good books in that tagmash, mostly by Elizabeth Peters.

It might help to think of "lives of ordinary people" as social history. Some examples of books that would fall into this category:
At Home: A Short History of Private Life by Bill Bryson
The Victorian House: Domestic Life from Childbirth to Deathbed by Judith Flanders
A Midwife's Tale: The Life of Martha Ballard, Based on Her Diary by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America by David Hackett Fischer
Singled Out: How Two Million British Women Survived Without Men After the First World War by Virginia Nicholson
Life in a Medieval Village by Frances & Joseph Gies

It might be harder for those who want to read mostly historical fiction to find books to fit this theme, but I think it would be possible. I think books like The Buddha in the Attic by Julie Otsuka or The Persian Pickle Club by Sandra Dallas might work. The Grapes of Wrath would also work if you want to include literary classics.

The Source would be a good fiction book for archaeology.

#261 by MarthaJeanne> oh definitely.

>253 Samantha_kathy: I'd define culture and the arts as things (and people) having to do with art (as in painting, sculpture, photography, drawing, etc.), music, dance, theatre and literature. Also things more tangentially connected to those areas (I'd include architecture, fashion and interior design as they're closely related to art).

Fall of civilizations is, well just that. Books about the cause of the fall, set during the fall, what happens after the fall.

Science when not specified more than that usually refers to natural science and that's how I interpreted it. I'm sure there are people who disagree with me (there often are) but I'd argue that it includes all areas of natural science and technology. It includes biology, chemistry, physics, geology but not linguistics, social science, psychology (though that one can be debated - I'd say it belongs with medicine). Alchemy is not a "real" science but the people involved with it were practicing both chemistry and physics so I'd say it goes.

260 I'd much prefer "social history" to "ordinary people".

A note on Communication...I actually see this as fitting into science and technology. When I've taught STS (Science and Technology in Society), which is more and more a requirement in schools, we've spent whole weeks on communication technologies and the way they affect society, or vice versa. We've also spent a lot of time in that class looking at language as a sort of early tool/technology in itself, so for me at least, the books that folks are grouping specifically under communication would also fit in with science and technology, much as they might seem like really separate categories at first.

Beyond that one, I really don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said! I'll be excited to participate no matter what ends up being chosen. My own votes were based mostly on the nonfiction I have floating around in my tbr pile, because I am consistently trying to read more nonfiction of all sorts. I'm honestly not sure what I'll read if one category ends up being food and fashion, but I imagine someone could give me a suggestion that would appeal, even if in fiction or historical fiction!

Be well, everyone. (And, good reading!)

>264 whitewavedarling: There's a lot of nonfiction following the history of food that might be good choices. I have A History of the World in 6 Glasses on my Kindle that I would like to have an excuse to read. There's also Salt, Spice, Cod, Potato -- put that together and you've got a stew going! :-)

This looks like a fun list that I just found, although I haven't read any of these books: http://flavorwire.com/330926/10-amazing-books-on-food-history-from-jeffrey-pilch...

>263 PawsforThought: Actually, I'd raise a case for both Psychology and Linguistics to be included in 'Science', depending on the actual topic. Cognitive psychology and neuropsychology, for example, sit very firmly under the 'Science' banner, so too do books concerned with biolinguistics and the evolution of language. That's not to say that they don't sit under other categories too but they do belong with Science.

>266 klarusu: True as science can include natural science (natural phenomena) and social science (human behavior and societies). It seems like a broad theme for a month as it stands.

If we separate the two, we have the possibility to treat way more subjects which are, I think, not directly related.

Natural science : physics (also Space and the Heavens), biology (also zoology and botany), chemistry, earth science (also meteorology, geology, ecology ...) ...

Social science: Archaeology (humanities but applicable in a broader sense) and Anthropology, Communications, education, linguistics (humanities but applicable in a broader sense), psychology ...

Even with these two themes, we still have not broach the applied science like engineering, medicine and computing ... or formal science like logic and mathematics.

So I'm in favor of Natural Science, Social Science and Medicine as separate theme, meaning with the 22 themes proposed something like:

Natural Science
Archeology and Anthropology, Communications (Social Science)
Medicine & Disease

>267 electrice: I also like separating out the themes better than lumping them all under science (which I admit does include many themes). Part of my idea of the CATS is to maybe lead to discussion or connections between the books we read to fit the theme and we have a greater chance of that happening with themes that are narrow enough to provide connections and wide enough to encourage participation.

>266 klarusu: Well, as I said, I'd place psychology (and all its varieties) under Medicine. Linguistics, as others have now commented, could be included in a "social science" or similar theme. Or "communication". To me, science is natural science and neither psychology or linguistics is "pure" natural science, there are too many ties to other fields for that. Even if some off-shoots are more scientifical than others.

>268 japaul22: I agree. It's not easy to have broad enough, so people will participate, but narrow enough, so books that people are reading can be discussed in the theme context ...

For example, with the word technology, information technology, nanotechnology or computer technology come to mind.

So in the formulation Science and Technology, I'm thinking that Science is related to Natural Science, Applied Science and Formal Science. These fields, for me, work well with technology.

In this context, I'm not thinking of linguistics or psychology but it's linked to the fact that technology is related to science ...

It may be too late for this, but I think Travel would go well with Exploration, and the Conquest elements could fit in with War and/or Colonialization.

On the topic of sciences: I agree that theoretically lots of things can be considered science (e.g., linguistics), but for the purposes of a semi-focused theme I'd be more inclined to read about the harder sciences, and put language books in Communication. Of course, this may change if communication doesn't actually get chosen, which would leave some books without another home ;). It wouldn't be my natural instinct to put books on, say, deciphering an ancient language in with Science and Technology, but if that's where everyone else thinks they belong, I can go with it.

When I have a chance, I'll try to come up with some more ideas for books that would go under Communication. But I'm imagining not just the technological aspects of communication, which of course are a major part of it, but also historic language use and development, translation, interactions between people from different linguistic/cultural backgrounds, biographies of someone like Helen Keller, etc. Also, the whole Books theme would probably fit here.

After reading all this this morning, I am probably going to go back and go through my votes and maybe change a few.

I was the one who suggested Lifestyles I think the adding of the words "of ordinary people" may have caused some confusion. I meant historical fiction/non-fiction that are not about the well-known or famous. In other words not biographies or stories where kings, queens, famous generals, explorers, scientists, etc. are the main characters. All the books that Carrie mentions in >260 cbl_tn: would definitely work. Plus books that simply tell a story that happens to have a historical setting, famous people may be in them, just not as main characters. I see Lifestyles as a catch-all for books that either don't fit into the other themes or you didn't have enough room to fit them into the other themes.

I also want to add that I totally agree with >245 Samantha_kathy:, I think we all know the difference between disagreeing with someone or being dismissive of someone and we should stay within the bounds. I think we have to be a little extra careful (and also have a little extra understanding) as sometimes it's difficult to set the right tone in writing especially as some are not writing in their native tongue. Overall I enjoy the discussions and love it when people want to really sell the rest of us on their themes.

I also want to take a minute and give Ridgewaygirl a hand as she is in the difficult position of trying to please everyone which in a group as large and diverse as this is an impossible task. I do agree that voting was the right way to go, this way the end product will be a collaborative result.

What, to me, seems to be lost in all the discussion is the fact that this challenge is a TIOLI - TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. If you want to read something in the time frame designated but don't like the "theme" then forget the theme and read the book you want. You can read the time period alone or the theme alone or both together or none at all. I personally know that there will be some time periods that I will not read and that there will be themes that I'm not interested in. This is my choice and we all have that ability to make that choice for ourselves.

As much as I would like to read all these themes and time periods, they don't all fit into my personal theme for the Category Challenge of 2015 so I'll be playing along as I can. That doesn't mean that I don't have my favorites in the themes, but I'll just watch and see how the vote progresses.

Off and on there has been some questions/ discussion about counting "no" votes in addition to "yes" votes. (post 215 in this thread for question of counting; posts 89 and 94 in one of "Next year's CAT -- final voting.)

We have so far always counted only the "yes" votes. I agree that Kay is in a difficult position of trying to please everyone (post 272).

Out of interest, I looked at the final voting for the three cats for 2015. The same three would have won by counting the no votes since HistoryCAT would have had 22 votes (37-15), SFFF 11 (33-22) and Random 11 (30-19). The runner-ups were a little farther apart with non-fiction having 9 (28-19) and CATWoman having 5 (28-23). The other 6 all had negative numbers. The standings of the top 3 would have been the same also counting the undecided as if they were no votes; Non-fiction and CATWoman would have been tied with zero votes.

This might not be a really good experiment since some people might have only voted yes without voting no or undecided since since we were told that "no" votes would not count. Also, it does not mean that other votes on other things might not turn out differently.

It just occurred to me that film/movies would also count for an "arts and culture" theme. And photography!

>275 christina_reads: Of course they would! It's not all "posh things". Breakdance is arts too, as is panto and Weird Al Yankovic.

FWIW, here are my reasons for what I would like to see as the themes

Archaeology and Anthropology I actually have a few books that would fit here but not a part history I'm really anxious to explore at this time.

Culture and the Arts
I have a book that I received as a gift which is all the paintings in the Louvre and I also have a few other books that are art related but doesn't really fit into my Category Challenge (CC).

Books
I'm thinking that this really belongs with the Arts.

Colonialization
Not a part history I'm really anxious to explore at this time.

Communication
My main focus, personally, will be the beginning of the 20th century where this could fit in nicely.

Crime and Mysteries
Wasn't this covered in the Mystery Cat in 2014?

Displaced, Dispossessed and Oppressed
I too am not a fan. I'm looking more for topics that are uplifting and at the same time educational.

Equality and Human Rights
Ditto for DD+O

Exploration and Conquest
Personally, I think that Exploration falls under either Colonization or Space even both and Conquest could go with War.

The Fall of Civilizations
This one has me fascinated.

Food and Fashion
I'm thinking that this really belongs with the Arts.

Immigration and Migration
This one I covered in he GeoCat in 2014.

Leaders
This seems to be perfect for all those that were in favor of the BioCat. I can do my Presidents!

Myths and Legends
This seems like it belongs to SFFCAT, IMO.

Natural History
not my cup of tea

The Lifestyles of Ordinary People
not my cup of tea

Plagues and Disasters
Couldn't we combine with Medicine and Disease?

Politics
This one I would DEFINITELY not do. I'm so sick of politicians and politics - ENOUGH! For everyone else, more power to you.

Medicine and Disease
Another that fascinates me.

Science and Technology
Not sure what I would read , but I'd check it out.

Religion
Right now, for me, it seems that religion only seems to be causing problems in the world, I'll pass.

Space and the Heavens
couldn't this be added with Science and Technology?

Transportation
Seems to go with Travel

Travel
Ditto

War and Peace
A definite for me!

>275 christina_reads: Four or five years ago, there was an arts reading challenge in the blogosphere that held great promise, but eventually failed owing in large part to the participants not being able to see beyond The Girl with the Pearl Earring and some crafting books! And too, the moderator had some IRL things to deal with, so her interest in curating the lists or moving the group forward diminished and eventually disappeared. For my part, I loved the challenge and continued even after it went dormant: I made trips to museums to see some of the art work I had heard about, and developed an interest in certain areas of music that I hadn't considered beforehand as well.

After about ten years of not really having the time to see many movies that weren't rated "G" or animated, this year I decided that I wanted to expand my horizons a bit. I set myself a personal goal of watching 100 films this year. Some are on DVD, some are rentals, some I actually go to the theater for! It's been completely random but certainly a lot of fun! The idea is that next year, as I watch movies, I'll have a "base line" against which to compare movies I watch then. With that in mind, I've also been acquiring some books about the film industry, including some bios. If Arts & Culture gets selected as a category, I'm definitely going to be heading into the film & music direction! :-)

Judy, I put Lifestyles with Ordinary People as the definitions were the same. Social History if you're considering non-fiction. It does give a lot of options, especially in fiction, but also a lot of excellent non-fiction including many memoirs. I think it would be an excellent theme, just because it's so flexible and the lives of ordinary people shed more light on what a particular era was like than the lives of royalty.

Another theme I really like is Crime and Mystery. I've got a pile of historical mystery novels, but also a book on the mystery of what happened to the inhabitants of Roanoke and The Suspicions of Mr. Whicher, which has been on my TBR for some time.

War and Peace is a great theme, especially given that so many people are reading about WWI, in view of its centenary.

Exploration and Conquest is a theme that has a lot of flexibility to it. I like books about the search for the Northwest Passage or voyages to Antarctica.

I like the Travel theme a lot, as I have a few books involving people traveling to remote locations, both fiction and non-fiction.

There are several more themes I like and a few that I'll wait and see what people suggest as possible books for those before I decide to skip that month.

>278 Tanya-dogearedcopy: That sounds like a fantastic challenge. Shame it ended up not really working. I would have loved taking part in something like that.
If we do end up with Arts & Culture, it would be nice if we could add links to online resources where one could see/hear/experience some of the art in the books. Google Cultural Institute (formerly Google Arts Project) is a goldmine for paintings and sculptures in museums around the world. There's obviously YouTube for music and movies. The Internet Archive for movies and literature. And Project Gutenberg, obviously.

HA! I've found it! I've been digging through my stacks trying to find it for the past couple of days... It's The Timetables of History (by Bernard Grun.) The subtitles pretty much explain it all:

"A Horizontal Linkage of People and Events
Based on the Werner Stein's Kulturfahrplan
Who Did What Concurrently Through the Ages of Man in:
• History and Politics
• Literature & the Theater
• Religion & Philosophy
• Visual Arts
• Music
• Science and Technology
• Daily Life"

It covers from 5000 BCE to 1978 and I think it will be a great reference tool as I hone my lists of possible titles for this challenge! :-)

>278 Tanya-dogearedcopy: Definitely! There are some incredible resources online. I also discovered an amazing number of IRL places to go see, as well as a number of event opportunities to take advantage of that I had been previously unaware of!

>282 Tanya-dogearedcopy: If I was able to visit places in real life I'd do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, my home town isn't exactly a hotspot for arts and culture, and it's a long way to travel go get anywhere that is.
The book in >281 Tanya-dogearedcopy: seems really interesting.

>238 electrice: Thank you :)

>283 PawsforThought: Where I live now is a relative cultural backwater (though it does have a Shakespearean Theatre!) I investigated a couple of local efforts/venues for music and dance; but at the risk of sounding like a snob, they really weren't ready for prime time. And the arts tend to be more "artisanal crafts" so not much satisfaction there if you crave master works. One thing that has intrigued me though, is Fathom Events. It's a cinema program that does live and pre-recorded showings of performances by The Royal Ballet, The Bolshoi, The National Theatre (London plays), The New York City Ballet, etc. They also have some presentations by the British Museum and some one-offs like the last Monty Python performance, a special premier showing of a movie, a rock concert, and/or a sporting event. It's like having a little bit of the outside world come in :-)

As for the stuff I was able to see IRL, they were usually at the tail end of a business or family-related visit. I'm trying to get my Only Child exposed to more of the world too, so every once in a while, we take an extended week-end to major city to check out museums, aquariums, or parks :-)

>285 Tanya-dogearedcopy: I know of sort of almost close cinemas that have similar viewings. Mostly operas and a few other things. The closest one is 45 minutes away by car, and busses don't run at night. The second closest is 2, 5 hours away. So, yeah. Cultural backwater, like you said.
I did spend a week in Berlin and a few days in Copenhagen this summer and got a bit of a fix culture-wise. Would love to be able to go to some plays/operas/ballets/musical performances, though.

That's really good of you to do that with your child. Kids need to be exposed to cultural things.

>281 Tanya-dogearedcopy: I pulled out my copy last week!

Maybe we should combine "rulers/legends/ordinary people" into a single category called People. That would cover famous rulers, not-so-famous rulers, people who did something important but who aren't well remembered, people who represent the people who lived in a particular time period, and people whose lives are well documented but not authenticated.

I'm joking (mostly).

>288 Her_Royal_Orangeness: It's a great idea, that's something to think on. I'm not joking :)

>269 PawsforThought: & >271 _Zoe_: The benefit of these categories is that I could quite happily still read linguistics books under Science, depending on the topic of the books I'm considering. Linguistics can be a social science, absolutely, and at that level I've studied it, but as a natural scientist I would have no problem arguing the case for my inclusion of the pure natural science end of the spectrum under a science read. The genetics of language development, for example are pure natural science (in fact, more than that could be considered pure biological science). If I was considering a sociolinguistic book or a more general linguistics book, then I wouldn't consider that as that is definitely a 'social science' call for me (and we all know 'social science' isn't real science ;-)) ) It's the same with neuropsychology and cognitive psychology - there are many occasions where the topic of a book would define it most securely, for me, under 'Science' rather than 'Medicine', which for me has to have some definitive link to application rather than a broader understanding of processes. That said, it's why these categories are so good - I'm really interested in seeing what people choose to read for them because it may take me somewhere I didn't expect.

>290 klarusu: OK, I'm biased. I'm a physicist and work in microeletronics so when I'm thinking science, physics, chemistry, mathematics come to mind, then biology, earth science and engineering ...

I have no knowledge of linguistics so I'm looking forward your choices for this one :)

>291 electrice: I'm a biologist by trade (more specifically a fruitfly/DNA/genetics bod), just finishing up a cross-discipline stint with earth & environmental scientists. Physics is very hard ;-)

But physics is fun!

>290 klarusu: I've studied linguistics too, and mostly from a sociolinguistics perspective, so I consider all linguistics to be social science. Even the parts that deal with neuron and whatnot. I feel that if the "mother field" is in social science, then the offshoots are too.

Ok, here are my reasons for the themes that I voted for:

1. Archaeology and Anthropology
This could be part of Natural History if using a modern definition of the field.

2. Culture and the Arts (Y)
Plays, movies, sculpture, painting, music, literature ... Do I really need to say more?

3. Books
This could be part of Culture and the Arts.

4. Colonialization

5. Communication

6. Crime and Mysteries (Y)
I’m tempted by all historical mysteries that could be crammed there. I’m not really interested in real-life crime though.

7. Displaced, Dispossessed and Oppressed
A mix of: Colonization, Equality and Human Rights, Immigration and Migration.
So it could be part of any of those.

8. Equality and Human Rights (Y)
Segregation, Apartheid, LGBTQ civil rights, disabled people rights, minorities’ rights (women, ethnic group ...), modern slavery ... There’s a lot of subjects to read about.

9. Exploration and Conquest (Y)
I’m thinking about Polar expedition (Charcot, Scott, Shackleton - Amundsen, Nansen), conquest of Summit (Hillary), maritime exploration (Cook, Bougainville …) etc...

10. The Fall of Civilizations

11. Food and Fashion
It was one of my 5 top themes at the beginning but it could be part of Culture and the Arts.

12. Immigration and Migration

13. Leaders

14. Myths and Legends

15. Natural History (Y)
Oxford Dictionary definition
Scientific study of animals or plants, especially as concerned with observation rather than experiment, and presented in popular form (including Mineralogy and Paleontology).

Historical definition
In antiquity, it covered essentially anything connected with nature or which used materials drawn from nature (Pliny the Elder's Natural History for example).
In modern terms, natural philosophy roughly corresponded to modern physics and chemistry, while natural history included the Biological and Geological Sciences.

Modern definition
The scope of work encompassed by many leading natural history museums, which often include elements of Anthropology, Geology, Paleontology and Astronomy along with Botany and Zoology, or include both cultural and natural components of the world, can be defined as natural history.

16. The Lifestyles of Ordinary People (Y)
It’s a good theme because it means that we can read about everyday life history (broad theme is nice).

17. Plagues and Disasters (Y)
I’m interested in natural disasters.

18. Politics(Y)
I’ve some books that could fit; the CAT would be a good incentive to read them.

19. Medicine and Disease (Y)
History of Forensics Medicine, plus Black Death, Influenza, Ebola ... Lots of materials for this one.

20. Science and Technology (Y)
I’m thinking, physics (Einstein, Newton, Tesla …), chemistry (Arrhenius, Avogadro, Dalton …), mathematics (cryptography …) and engineering …

21. Religion (Y)
I’ve some books that could fit; the CAT would be a good incentive to read them.

22. Space and the Heavens
This one could be a part of Natural History.

23. Transportation
Transport could be part of Science and Technology.

24. Travel

25. War and Peace (Y)
I’ve some books that could fit; the CAT would be a good incentive to read them.

Two days left to vote for your favorite themes. As things stand, the twelve top choices are:

War & Peace
Exploration & Conquest
Medicine & Disease
Science & Technology
Culture & the Arts
Myths & Legends
Plagues & Disasters
Equality & Human Rights
Crimes & Mysteries
Religion
Immigration & Migration
Lifestyles of Ordinary People

The next few runners up are Leaders, Communication, and Colonialization.

>296 RidgewayGirl: I'm fine with that list, although I'd prefer to see Medicine & Disease combined with Science & Technology.

It's a great list. The only one that doesn't sit with me is Lifestyles of Ordinary People, which I'd rather see as just People. The 'Lifestyles of Ordinary' bit makes it limiting to me. I'm all for reading about life histories, biographies & social history but I'd really prefer it to be broad enough the encompass those that are not necessarily 'ordinary'. That's an absolutely minor quibble though. These seem to have something to inspire everyone, which is just the ticket.

Yup, I agree that it's a great list.

In keeping with the tradition, I'll list my one quibble: Crime and Mysteries seems sort of out of place in a list of major topics in history; it seems more like a category for a certain type of novel. But I'm sure I'll find plenty to read there too.

I'll also add that I think Colonialization would be a nice complement to Exploration and Conquest: after people discover and conquer a new place, what happens next?

Do we also have a list of the timeframes?

>300 sturlington: I think it's probably best if we do one thing at a time and focus on the themes for now. When the voting is over and the results made clear, people can start sorting out the time periods.

>301 PawsforThought: Ok, sorry to be jumping the gun.

>300 sturlington: Yes, or rather, sort of. Cyderry came up with a time division in >83 cyderry:, which we then adjusted a bit, by vote, to say that there should be one BCE theme, and two set in the twentieth century. After 2000 was decided to be too late, but there were many who wanted the cut-off to come in around 1950.

As soon as the votes on the themes are counted, I'll put up final votes on the time frames, as well as asking about chronological vs. random for the time frames and asking whether we want to assign the themes we're currently voting on randomly, or do we want to give each a specific month.

>299 _Zoe_: Sure, there's plenty of crime novels (personally I'm completely ignoring the "mystery" that somehow got added, I don't know how/why that relates to history), but that's not at all what I was thinking about or will be reading for it. True crime in the "general" sense, people like Rasputin, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Countess Báthory, etc, espionage would fit as both crime & mystery, and so forth.

>298 klarusu: I agree with the idea of a "People" category, which I mentioned in >288 Her_Royal_Orangeness:.

"Maybe we should combine "rulers/legends/ordinary people" into a single category called People. That would cover famous rulers, not-so-famous rulers, people who did something important but who aren't well remembered, people who represent the people who lived in a particular time period, and people whose lives are well documented but not authenticated."

This comment either got lost in discussion or was ignored because it's a silly suggestion. :)

>299 _Zoe_: Crime & Mystery can be either historical mysteries or historical novels with a mystery in the storyline. They are two different things, imo. Along those lines of thinking, it's not "a category for a certain type of novel."

>299 _Zoe_: There are also real-life historical mysteries that could count...I'm thinking Jack the Ripper, although technically his identity is no longer a mystery. Or there's crime & punishment throughout history, which could include things like legal penalties, torture, and the like. Maybe I'm interpreting too broadly -- and I'll almost certainly read a historical mystery novel for this theme! -- but I do think there are other options for people who don't find such books appealing.

>304 .Monkey.: There are plenty of historical mysteries that could be explored during that theme. Marlowe being/not being a spy, for instance. The Roanoke Colony. The Voynich manuscript. The Mary Celeste. D.B. Cooper's disappearance. Jack the Ripper!

>306 christina_reads: I don't think that's being too broad at all, those things are also certainly crime-related.

>305 Her_Royal_Orangeness: The point of "ordinary" was that there's tons of books focusing on rulers of various sorts, the "regular" folk tend to get lost in the shuffle. So the theme was meant to take a look at what the non-ruling non-famous people were up to at whatever time period. If the majority wants it to cover everything, well, whatever, but that would change the entire intent of it. Weren't rulers one of the options? If they didn't make the cut, why should we change the one that did to include them?

>307 PawsforThought: Sure, there's various ones here and there, but much fewer & further between. Not something I'm interested in trying to pin down. I think the Ripper works just fine as crime. :P

>308 .Monkey.: Well, we all have themes we're less fond of. I know I'm not going to read anything during the religion theme, because I have zero interest in the matter. But I do want to read about some historical mysteries. :)

Re: ordinary people & rulers (and other "big" people). If the themes for non-ordinary people don't make it, there will still be plenty of possibilities to read about such people during other themes (religion, conquest, war & peace, human rights, science & technology and culture & arts all work for various famous names).

>305 Her_Royal_Orangeness: I missed that suggestion! Have a post-hoc thumbs up ;-)

>308 .Monkey.: I wasn't specifically thinking Rulers but definitely prefer the broader topic. I guess it depends how each of us makes the choice to define 'ordinary' (which, to be fair, is a term I hate). What's ordinary to one may not be so to others. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out. Hopefully some interesting reads & novel approaches.

>308 .Monkey.: - Because some people were not rulers, or ordinary, or legends......so they don't fit anywhere. And because some participants don't want to read about rulers and other participants don't like the ordinary people idea and yet other participants are puzzled about who was a legend besides King Arthur so......just call it "People" and there's something for everyone.

>311 Her_Royal_Orangeness: There are plenty of categories to stuff "the other people" in. We can't go tweaking the themes we're already voting on (and are almost finished with the voting). What's done is done. No one is going to love all the themes chosen and if there's a month where one can't find a books to go with either the theme or the time period, then just skip that month! It's not a tragedy.

To be clear, I know there *are* lots of real historical crimes and mysteries, it just doesn't seem like such a major theme as all the rest. I wonder whether it would still have been selected if this were purely a non-fiction challenge.

For the rest, I think it's too late in the process to make any major changes to the categories.

Right, different people all want different things, that's why we suggested things and voted. It would demean that to go changing it after the fact. If you don't like what wins for some, don't read them, or fudge it. I certainly won't be reading all of them.

Fortunately we'll have time periods in addition to themes :)

>313 _Zoe_: I can't speak for anyone else but I'm mostly looking at the entire CAT as nonfic and that is one I explicitly supported for nonfiction purposes.

>313 _Zoe_: Honestly, that theme is the only one I'm certain I'm going to be reading non-fiction in.

>316 .Monkey.: I still haven't decided on a balance of fiction and non-fiction. I also supported it explicitly as a non-fiction challenge, but I like having the option to read fiction as well, and I'm sure I'll do that on occasion.

>318 PawsforThought: That's encouraging, thanks!

>319 _Zoe_: Yeah, I don't have titles picked out or anything for any at all, but I read a lot of fiction because it's mostly fast & fun. I enjoy learning about all sorts of different things though, and have plenty of nonfic titles, but it usually takes a little extra motivation to get to them, because they slow me down (and also tend to be about less pleasant situations, war, oppression, etc, so too much gets rough). That's why I like challenges that push me to read them, and why I include a few in my TBR Challenge and such. I'm sure I'll read various fiction that could apply, but I will most likely use this as a nonfic push. I will also likely not wind up reading most things in their assigned months because that kind of thing doesn't work well for me and therefore not really participate in the official CAT, but I'll still try to read titles from the ones I'm interested in.

>320 .Monkey.: That makes sense :). I tend to read about 50/50 fiction/non-fiction anyway, so my goal here is to get a bit deeper into some of the periods and topics. But I can see myself picking overly-heavy non-fiction books for some months, and then needing a break the next month. I think I'll try to stick roughly to the schedule, but allow myself a month's leeway on either side.

I'll probably try, to some extent; I made a "schedule" thing for this year but it mostly went by the wayside. I'll probably do the same again, trying to find the titles that could go under each thing, having it sorted so I know when I'm "supposed" to read them, but... I read randomly. I read something heavy/slow, maybe next I pick up something "literature," once that's done I'm dragging a bit so I pick up a thriller I can read in a day, then I go for a classic, etc etc, I shuffle it all around, and it depends how long it takes me to get through the slower ones, if I'm feeling "behind" then I'm not going to pick up another slow one, I'll read a few (hopefully) quicker ones, so, yeah, trying to fit titles between explicit dates just isn't my thing.

>322 .Monkey.: Oh, I completely understand. I'm much better at creating book schedules than at actually sticking to them :D. I'm hoping that by including some easier books I'll be able to follow my plan a bit more closely, but only time will tell.

I'm looking forward to seeing everyone's selections for this challenge!

Just a reminder that you don't have to read by the themes, you can just stick with the time periods.

I'm going to comment on the Crime and Mystery and second PM's mention of true crime. That is what I was thinking of with that theme.

Also, if I'm remembering correctly for "Lifestyles of Ordinary People", the idea was that the focus was NOT on famous people, so that would cut out leaders, royalty, etc. If we switched it to simply People, it covers more, but loses the intent, I think.

>310 klarusu:
I guess it depends how each of us makes the choice to define 'ordinary' (which, to be fair, is a term I hate). What's ordinary to one may not be so to others.

What about rephrasing it: Lifestyles of Everyday People
instead of using the word "ordinary"?

>313 _Zoe_: To be clear, I know there *are* lots of real historical crimes and mysteries, it just doesn't seem like such a major theme as all the rest. I wonder whether it would still have been selected if this were purely a non-fiction challenge.

I would have selected it for nonfiction. In fact, when I suggested a HistoryCAT, that would probably have been one of my top themes in mind! :-) True crime...

Because people have voted on the themes, they can't now be changed, although the titles certainly can. So if the volunteer who hosts the Lifestyles of Ordinary People wants to give it a better name, they are encouraged to do so. At this point, however, the substance of the theme stands as it is.

Does is make it clearer to consider it social history? There's tons of that available. It looks at how history affected people not in positions of power, the teachers, farmers, soldiers, etc…So there are many books about being a soldier in WWI, or Vietnam and other books on surviving the Great Depression or crossing the great plains in a Conestoga wagon, etc…

As for the Great and the Good, there will be eleven other months, twelve if Lifestyles of Ordinary People doesn't make the cut. We'll have plenty of time for Henry VIII's wives or the Hapsburg family.

>328 RidgewayGirl: As for the Great and the Good, there will be eleven other months, twelve if Lifestyles of Ordinary People doesn't make the cut. We'll have plenty of time for Henry VIII's wives or the Hapsburg family.
Exactly what I've been trying to say.

Since Food and Textiles isn't going to make the cut, they would fit in Ordinary People. I would think even books like Cod. Fishermen and the people who ate most of the cod are just ordinary folk.

>330 MarthaJeanne: Exactly. Don't look at it as having to find a book about Joe Blow, everyman, and think of it as encompassing anything that isn't about someone famous. So Cod, Salt, The Worst Hard Time, Young Men and Fire, Red Azalea or Citizen Soldiers would all fit easily. And for fiction, well, there's an awful lot, from Little House on the Prairie to The Pillars of the Earth.

>328 RidgewayGirl: Absolutely better if it's social history from my perspective - makes it much clearer. I think my point was not that everyone should be included but that 'ordinary' was a relative term. I would consider Watson and Crick to be ordinary, for example. I work with research scientists every day, they are not extraordinary, great or good. Sometimes they're lucky and they hit a discovery that puts them on the map but they do so by standing on the shoulders of giants - they just happened to be the ones at the top at the time. One of my oldest friends is a actor, as far as I'm concerned, he's pretty ordinary too - he just picked acting where I picked science but we share a beer on a regular basis and our problems are still the same. So I would have no issue with including any work about an 'ordinary' person who just happened to do an 'extraordinary' job. I like social history - I think it expresses more clearly what people wanted to achieve with this category.

Like I said though, it's not a big issue - the list is shaping up really well. I'm looking forward to this CAT a lot. I think I'm also going to be one of the exclusively non-fiction folk. I have so much on my shelf that really needs reading. 12 months of HistoryCAT is perfect!

I'm in favour of "Social history", too.

I think I might actually try to read both a fiction and a non-fiction book each month for this CAT. Not sure if I'll manage it, but I can try :D

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm eager to count the votes and get to the next part of the planning! I'll open a new thread with results and new voting tomorrow morning. We're in the home stretch!

>335 RidgewayGirl: I'm eager too and happy with how things are going, thank you !

>335 RidgewayGirl: Yup, I'm also looking forward to it! What will we be voting on next?

>337 _Zoe_: I think it's time periods up next.

Yes, time periods and whether we want to go chronological or random with the time periods, as well as whether we want to randomly assign our themes to months, assign some themes to specific months and the rest randomly or if every theme needs a specific month.

That makes sense, thanks. I figured it had something to do with time periods, but I wasn't sure how the voting would work.