THEME READ FOR JULY: Women and Religion, Theology, & Sprituality

The theme read for July will be "Women and Religion, Theology, & Sprituality." We would like this to be a very inclusive theme, exploring female religious leaders, the feminine divine, feminine interpretations of Biblical history, goddesses, and the like. It is not limited to Christianity; all forms of belief are welcome.

There are a number of strands to this theme.
- inspirational books written by women of faith
- spiritual reflection type of books
- women’s spirituality
- fiction set in context of religion and faith playing a part in the decision making of women’s lives
- factual books by female proponents of a certain religion
- factual books by women who have researched aspects of religion
- biographical narratives with a focus upon the role of religion in a woman’s life.

Readers might want to take a comparative religion approach i.e.;
- women and Judaism
- women and Christianity
- women and Islam
- women and Hinduism
- women and Sikhism
- women and Buddhism
- women and Aboriginal Religions
- women and African religious traditions
- women and Paganism

Or, you could explore other dimensions such as:
- the status of women in religion
- women and freedom from religion
- women and religion in art
- feminist spirituality – myth of the Goddess
- feminine theology
- feminine divine

If that's not enough to inspire you, here are some web sites to explore with lists:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/ for information regarding world religions
http://www.intute.ac.uk/socialsciences/cgi-bin/browse.pl?id=120673 a source of papers and starting points – womens studies
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/edures35.htm Women and the Holocaust

As this theme may introduce ideas that some feel are controversial, please bear in mind the importance of adhering to a spirit of mutual learning and values of mutual respect, tolerance and understanding. Juliette has a number of suggested works which she will add to this thread. We invite anyone interested to post suggestions, too. Posting just titles and authors seems to work best (no reviews or descriptions please!) The only requirement is that the book be written by a woman!

When you decide which book you want to read, post here to let us know what you pick! In July we'll discuss how our authors treated the theme (a separate thread will be setup just for discussion). For more information, see the "anyone interested in theme read?" thread, where the theme read concept is discussed. Hope you'll join us!

pretty, thorough you two...I'm impressed:-)

Friends - here is a starter list for what is a vast theme. Many of the touchstones were out of action so I edited and put in the link for each book. I have broken the description rule for the first book as you may find it especially relevant.

Wise Women – Over Two Thousand Years of Spiritual Writing by Women by Susan N Cahill. LT description link http://www.librarything.com/work/482565

A pathbreaking anthology representing a tradition of the prophetic and practical wisdom of women's spirituality. Spiritual experience is a liberating source of women's identity and their resistance to oppression. Moving from the Native American tale "The Creation of Spider Woman" and the poet-nun of Mexico Sor Juana Ins de la Cruz to the contemporary African American thinker Marian Wright Edelman and the Buddhist shaman Joan Halifax, these visionaries see justice and love, loss, aging, and freedom. It inspires them to artistic expression and political action. This deeply moving collection of memoirs, stories, poetry, letters, prayers, and theologies is a source of empowering and uplifting thought for women in any time, at any age. Amazon description.

The Tent of Abraham: Stories of Hope and Peace for Jews, Christians and Muslims by Joan D. Chittister and Saadi Shakur Chisti
http://www.librarything.com/work/1764663

The Friendship of Women The Hidden Tradition by Joan Chittister
http://www.librarything.com/work/789611/descriptions

A Thread of Grace by Mary Doria Russell
http://www.librarything.com/work/17729

Price of Honour: Muslim women lift the veil of silence by Jan Goodwin
http://www.librarything.com/work/308604

Behind the Burqa: Our life in Afghanistan and how we escaped to freedom by Salima and Hala
http://www.librarything.com/work/2175667

Woman at Point Zero / Nawal El Saadawi
http://www.librarything.com/work/124574

The Hidden face of Eve: Women in the Arab world by Nawal El Saadawi
http://www.librarything.com/work/634325

Sharing The Darkness by Sheila Cassidy
http://www.librarything.com/work/135892

God’s Springtime Joyce Huggett
http://www.librarything.com/work/2194766

Heart Talks With Mother God by Bridget Mary Meehan (children’s book)
http://www.librarything.com/work/1077525

Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi
http://www.librarything.com/work/2371284

The Death of Adam – essays on modern thought by Marilynne Robinson
http://www.librarything.com/work/76483/descriptions

I am wondering if any ladies as 'women of faith' would be willing to share titles relating to their faith? That would really add to the diversity and richness of this subject.

Our focus with the past theme reads have been women writing about women. Have you intentionally decided to broaden that to include women writing about faith whether or not the protagonist is female or not? Gilead comes to mind here . . .

Your call. Wow, you have a cast a huge, huge tent here.

Thank you for pointing that out avaland. I am very willing to withdraw her as I know I can get a little over enthusiastic about that book! With such a wide canvas folks may well prefer to stay with the original 'women writing about women'.

George Eliot's Adam Bede and Daniel Deronda both have religion (Methodisim and Judaism) as themes with women characters searching for religious identity and becoming religious leaders.

(Edited so touchstones would appear.)

>juliette07, well you two should think about it and call it.

My thoughts: By focusing on women protagonists, one keeps the characters on a somewhat level playing field. A woman writing about faith with a male protagonist and one writing about faith with a female protagonist can be very different stories particularly those with more historical settings (since all the major religions reinforce the patriarchy). There is a whole other discussion about why authors used a protagonist of one gender or another. . .

And one might argue that the journey of personal faith would be the same despite gender, I would argue that can't be true if one's God is male. I don't want to get into a whole lengthy discussion on this at the moment, but am attempting:-) to point out some complications with having both in the same discussion. It is hard to include Gilead without including something like Mark Salzman's Lying Awake which has a woman protagonist. There are different questions in "What does Marilynne Robinson, a woman, have to say about religion and faith in her book Gilead?" as opposed to "What does Leila Aboulela say about religion and faith as shown through her Samma (a female protagonist)? Sorry, to pay devil's advocate here :-) (pun intended)

Certainly others could weigh in on this (in case I've confused things, the question is to limit the choices to women authors writing about women, or open it to women writing about faith (with no regard to the gender of the protagonists).

Catharine Maria Sedgwick's A New England Tale, written in 1822, fits this category well.

These are excellent points, avaland. I think they are seriously worth considering now in this specific context and should be broadly applied as we move forward to other themes.

My personal view is that we should stick with the women writing about women as originally intended.

To answer avaland's #5 no I didn't intentionally decide to broaden out. Simply got carried away especially as I had her other book in mind. But I have intentionally edited the book off post 3.

I agree with juliette07, let's stick with women writing about women.

avaland, I realize this thread "cast a huge tent," but at the same time, we felt that inclusivity was very, very important. There are so many ways of knowing the divine, and of experiencing spirituality, and we wanted to respect the different points of view that likely exist in the group.

Looking forward to more book recommendations as I am still pondering what I'm going to read ...

If anyone is looking for a really interesting book set in the Medieval period, I recommend Hildegard of Bingen: the Woman of her Age by Fiona Maddock. It's a biography that reads like a novel. I borrowed it from the library to use as a reference for a project I did on Hildegard of Bingen, and I liked the book so much that I hunted down my own copy to own.

Yes Nickelini - such a lady and a great read. Thanks for the recommendation.

I'll be reading Women In The Wall by Julia O'Faolain.

I've just finished reading The Sea Road by Margaret Elphinstone, a novel based on the true story of an 11th-century Icelandic woman who travelled to Greenland and North America with her husbands. Religion - and specifically the nature of faith, and the coming of Christianity into the world of the Norse gods - was quite a big theme of the book, and it might be interesting reading for this thread.

Another possible recommendation is The Corner That Held Them by Sylvia Townsend Warner, the story of a 14th-century nunnery.

Nun books include Rumer Godden's In this House of Brede, Black Narcissus and Five for Sorrow, Ten for Joy; Katherine Hulme's A Nun's Story; and Anne Patchett's The Patron Saint of Liars.

There's also Muriel Spark's The Abbess of Crewe, but that's more political satire than it is about nuns.

Louise Collis wrote a fine book about Margery of Kempe, Memoirs of a Medieval Woman.

Lady Murasaki also writes about becoming a Buddhist nun in her memoir.

I spent a little time over lunch today using tag searches and tagmashes to find interesting books for this theme. Each search turned up a long list of books; I've included only a few here that struck me (those with asterisks are ones I've read). You might find something here that inspires you, but feel free to conduct your own search on these terms and offer up your own suggestions.

Tagmash on Women, theology
* In Memory of Her: A Feminist Theological Reconstruction of Christian Origins by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza
* Womanspirit Rising: A Feminist Reader in Religion by Carol P. Christ
* She Who Is: The Mystery of God in Feminist Theological Discourse by Elizabeth Johnson
The dance of the dissident daughter by Sue Monk Kidd
Lost Women of the Bible: Finding Strength & Significance by Carolyn Custis James

Tagmash on Women, spirituality
* Womanspirit Rising: A Feminist Reader in Religion by Carol P. Christ
* Goddesses in everywoman : a new psychology of women by Jean Shinoda Bolen
* The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley
* The secret life of bees by Sue Monk Kidd
Eat, Pray, Love by Elizabeth Gilbert
Women who run with the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes
The dance of the dissident daughter by Sue Monk Kidd
Wouldn't take nothing for my journey now by Maya Angelou

Tag search on 'Feminine divine'
Sophia, goddess of wisdom, bride of God by Caitlin Matthews
The Living Goddess: Reclaiming the Tradition of the Mother of the Universe by Linda Johnsen

(sorry, touchstones uncooperative)

I'll add my next post which is for something I am a little nervous about. I will be reading The Septembers of Shiraz by Dalia Sofer. I like to talk and give my opinion on things , but I am getting an opportunity to meet the author in a couple of weeks and I need to hurry out and buy the book. I am told it is a quick read. So, I was just invited to a special discussion with her today! guess I could also cross this with dislocated women too.

I read a lot of nonfiction on spirituality, esp. by women writers. I have the impression from the description that these are OK for this topic and so thought I'd share some books I've read and enjoyed in the last year or two.

Speaking of Faith by Krista Tippett: I am a huge fan of the radio show Speaking of Faith on NPR. Krista Tippett is the host of that show and wrote this wonderful book a year or two ago in which she shares things she has learned about faith in our time and throughout history by interviewing a wide range of religious figures, thinkers, and writers. She herself spent some time in seminary and is also trained as a journalist.

Christianity
Anne Lamott, Traveling Mercies, Plan B, Grace Eventually

Kathleen Norris, The Quotidian Mysteries: Laundry, Liturgy, and “Women’s Work”, Dakota, The Cloister Walk, Amazing Grace (wrong touchstone on that last one)
(Lamott and Norris are both quite well known and so probably no comment is necessary, except that I think that they’re both wonderful!)

Phyllis Tickle, Wisdom in the Waiting: Spring’s Sacred Days (Phyllis Tickle is the former religion editor for Publisher’s Weekly magazine. She has written many other books that I also want to read—this was just a small, short book that got me started, and good for this time of year!)

Fae Malania, The Quantity of a Hazelnut (Malania’s husband was an Episcopal priest who, if I remember rightly, was on the committee that updated the Book of Common Prayer)

Roberta C. Bondi, Memories of God and Houses: A Family Memoir of Grace (Bondi is a protestant minister and very talented writer. Houses is esp. beautiful—it’s about home and generations of women within families)

Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, Failing America's Faithful: How Today's Churches Are Mixing God with Politics and Losing Their Way (This book has several distinct parts. One part posits an interesting theory of how and why the Catholic and mainstream protestant churches lost so many followers to evangelical denominations in recent decades. In another part, Kennedy talks about growing up in a Catholic family--one very much involved in the church’s social activism of the 1960s. It made me realize how seldom you read positive, hopeful things written by Catholics about their church.)

Buddhism
Pema Chodron, Start Where You Are, The Things That Scare You, Practicing Peace in Times of War (Chodron is a Buddhist nun and prolific writer; I also have several of her talks on CD. A wonderfully wise woman, but one with a sense of humor. The sense of humor comes out most clearly in her audio recordings.)

Buddhist and Quaker
Mary Rose O’Reilley, A Barn at the End of the World (I just read this recently and enjoyed it tremendously.)

Jewish
Maria Poggi Johnson, Strangers and Neighbors: Orthodox Jews (A christian’s view of her Orthodox Jewish neighbors.)

Rachel Naomi Remen, Kitchen Table Wisdom and My Grandfather’s Blessings (Both look at spirituality, esp. as it relates to health and serious illness.)

Great list TerrierGirl! I have no idea how I'm going to choose ... maybe I'll have to draw titles out of a hat!

The Book of Margery Kempe. Someone listed a bio above, but Kempe's dictated autobiography is readable and fascinating in its own right.

Two works of fiction that I found to be very "spiritual" without ties to formal religion are:

Ideas of Heaven: A Ring of Stories by Joan Silber.
Surfacing by Margaret Atwood

Strike this one, hadn't realized we were limiting ourselves to women writing about women - I'm thinking of starting with Persepolis II, which I've been meaning to read since finishing Persepolis. But that's on the short side; I may pull out some Hrosvit or Christine de Pizan.

Bumping this thread ... We have two weeks left in June so this seems like a good time to check in with everyone.

I believe this theme is going to be extended over both July and August. I'm currently mulling over my choice, and considering the Maddock Hildegard of Bingen (recommended by Nickelini in #12), or Start Where you Are (recommended by terriergirl in #18).

I'm interested to hear from others who plan to participate -- have you chosen a book yet?

I'm thinking I'm going to read Women in the Wall by Julia O'Faolain (which was given to me by a wonderfully generous LTer).

This is one of my favorite subjects--and I have quite a few in my tbr mountain.

Since this is a two month read, I'm going to try to read several--in fact I'm hoping for four. I'll definitely be reading Dakota by Kathleen Norris and Traveling Mercies by Anne Lamott. Both of these were mentioned above by terriergirl.

For the other two, I'll pick non-Christian works. I have all of Pema Chodron's works in my read/reread pile; she is one of my favorite authors. I also have The Toltec Way (shamanic) by Susan Gregg, Medicine Woman (shamanic) by Lynn Andrews, The Dance by Oriah (also a shaman) also known as Oriah Mountain Dreamer and The Woman With the Alabaster Jar: Mary Magdalen and the Holy Grail by Margaret Starbird. Guess I'll see where the conversation goes, before picking my additional reads.

If anyone is interested in another Buddhist woman writer, I received an ER copy of Authenticity by Venerable Yifa, a Buddhist nun who writes about practical Buddhism applied to life. I thought it was excellent and highly recommend it. I would definitely be interested in reading more of her books (if I wasn't trying to pare down Mount TBR).

I also loved the book Barn at the End of the World: The Apprenticeship of a Quaker Buddhist Shepherd which terriergirl mentioned above.

Several I recommend:

Two novels, The Illuminator and The Mercy Seller, both by Brenda Rickman Vantrease. They both deal with women's roles in religion, in a historical context.

and

Stalking the Divine by Kristin Ohlson.

My favorite novel that deals with the religion I grew up in, Catholicism, is Graham Greene's The Heart of the Matter though it's not so much about women. And then of course there are so many wonderful novels by Barbara Pym, all of which sport at least one minister/mister's wife and are delightfully funny!

I'm planning to participate with Galileo's Daughter, by Dava Sobel. Not sure how appropriate it will be for this theme, but Galileo stuck his daughter in an extremely impoverished convent, and the book is based on many, many years worth of her letters.

I am still working on the books - it depends if the library can get me a copy of Hildegard of Bingen book that was recommended. I had difficulty getting it privately so have resorted to trying to get it from the State library system - not too bad if you are not in a hurry for it! ;o)

I wanted to read some on buddhist nuns but having difficulty getting anything as well.

There have been so many wonderful suggestions on this topic - I just hope I can get some of the books - alot have been added to my 'to get' list.

Alex

I'm going to read The Spiral Staircase by Karen Armstrong. She is a former Catholic nun and well known religion writer. This book (memoir) chronicles the years after she left the convent.

mcna217 that was the first Karen Armstrong book that I read-- it definitely won't be my last. Since then, I've read a few more and also have some in the tbr pile. One of these days I want to read the prequel to SS Through the Narrow Gate.

Ah that reminds me of another spiritual journey story that I've had on my wishlist for awhile and may be interesting to others. I've heard that Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Monk Kidd is quite good.

Just realized that I'm reading a book now that fits with this theme: Eat, Pray, Love by Elizabeth Gilbert. I resisted reading this book because of all the hype, but I'm thoroughly enjoying it in the end.

avisannschild, please give me some reasons to read this. A lot of my friends have recommended it.

One even read me the opener while we were having lunch in a restaurant, and I almost slapped it out of her hands and told her to stop it, except she's a wonderful friend, and we make sacrifices for our friends.

But this sounded truly dreadful, one of those self-absorbed authors wrapped up in celebrating their own bravery and funniness like Anne LaMott, whose books I cannot get through, not even after I've taken my meds.

#31 - But this sounded truly dreadful, one of those self-absorbed authors wrapped up in celebrating their own bravery and funniness like Anne LaMott, whose books I cannot get through, not even after I've taken my meds.
-------------

Ha ha! That's too funny. I actually liked the one LaMott book I read, but I can still appreciate your comment. And it sooooo fits the book I'm currently reading (A Thousand Days in Venice). Maybe I need some meds to help me finish it.

#28, I'm also thinking of reading one of Karen Armstrong's. Probably Through the Narrow Gate. I haven't read any of her memoirs yet and like to take things in order.

#30, I tried Eat, Pray, Love, but it didn't grab me. I don't remember why anymore, though.

BTW #32, I, too, read Marlena de Blasi's A Thousand Days in Venice, and I don't think I would have liked it normally, but I read it the week before leaving on a trip to Italy so I was definitely wearing my rose-colored glasses at the time!

I just finished Anne Lamott's Traveling Mercies and I really, really liked it. I've read several of the 'spiritual journey' type books and Lamott is a different voice--hooray for a liberal Democrat unwed mother Christian voice. She definitely doesn't fall into the conservative norm that one thinks of when one thinks of Christianity. As she says, life cracks you open so the light can get to your innermost dark places.

I loved her take on prayer. She says she only knows two. "Help, help, help" and "Thank you, thank you, thank you." Her friend also has only two prayers but insists they are different: A morning prayer of "Whatever", and and an evening prayer of "Oh, well". Anne points out her friend's prayers are much harder if you have children. But what a wonderful example of taking what comes as it comes--of living in the moment.

nohrt4m3--I think it would be hard to write about a spiritual journey without doing a lot of self-examination. The humor tickled my funny bone (It's enough to make Jesus drink gin from the cat dish!) . But I know we're all different--this one spoke to me.

The title of this topic really opened my eyes to something else. I've read several spiritually enlightening Christian books by women authors; but no theology by Christian women. A LT friend confirmed my suspicions and told me 95% of Christian theology books are written by men, although he did mention a couple of women theologians he respected.

My first reaction was "Hmm, maybe women are more interested in a more immediate spirituality than the scholarly study of theology." But the light has dawned. Most Christian demoninations don't ordain women (I'm a Methodist and we do ordain women); seminaries are full of men. The opportunities are present for men to choose a scholarly path and find employement in their field, but outside of the few denominations that ordain women and probably some University positions, I believe that women have a tough time if they want to support themselves in this field. They become Godly women who support themselves in other ways--they do not become theologians.

And yet my knee jerk reaction was to wonder if women weren't interested in this field; not to marvel at the lack of opportunity for women. I've learned something about both myself and about discrimination.

streamsong - thank you - some interesting thoughts and questions.

Shall we move over to the DISCUSSION thread now we have really got going ? And if I may I will pose a question as soon as I get over there!

streamsong, where to begin?

How about 95 percent of theology being written by men. That's simply judging theology by quantity, not quality. Julian of Norwich got it all so right, that I'm not sure any man needed to bother after she wrote "Divine Revelations."

Re Lamott, I think we need liberal Democrat Christian voices, but she's not one I'm drawn to.

I think there's a line between self-absorption and self-examination, and in my view she's still in the former stage. The latter stage requires one to shut up for years--possibly decades--and seeing how it all plays with God rather than going on the lecture circuit and "liberating" audiences with laffs and swear words.

Lamott's recent assistance at a friend's suicide struck me as utterly appalling. Unless she's left out a lot of details in her own account of events, she offered to help before her friend had even contemplated suicide.

I don't see, from her own account, that she ever offered to advocate with doctors, palliative care experts, or even ask her friend how he wanted to live his last days.

Was she truly trying to help? Or did she see a great way to make a big in-your-face kind of splash, guaranteed to maintain her reputation as a famous Christian rebel?

"Eat, Love, Pray" strikes me as the same sort of self-admiring type of book, though perhaps of a more benign sort.

Sorry for putting this response over here, but the discussion thread wasn't set up to continue this topic.

If anyone is up for a scholarly work, one that is both brilliant and accessible, I would suggest Metaphorical Theology: Models of God in Religious Language by Sallie McFague. In this this book, McFague examines the ways in which language can function to include or exclude women. I often think of her book when I read A Book of Showings by Julian of Norwich. For those interested in Norwich, there's also The Book of Margery Kempe. Julian and Margery were contemporaries. Julian was saintly. And Margery . . . shall we say that she was feisty. I've been meaning to read some of the work of Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, a 17th-century nun from Mexico. She wrote essays, plays, and love poetry (the latter of which got in her in big trouble with the church). Listed below are two poems (each in Spanish followed by an English translation). The translator of the second poem is Alan Trueblood, whose bilingual translation is considered the definitive one. I personally don't think his translations are poetic, but . . .

Que contiene una fantasía
contenta con amor decente

Detente, sombra de mi bien esquivo,
imagen del hechizo que más quiero,
bella ilusión por quien alegre muero,
dulce ficción por quien penosa vivo.

Si al imán de tus gracias, atractivo,
sirve mi pecho de obediente acero,
¿para qué me enamoras lisonjero
si has de burlarme luego fugitivo?

Mas blasonar no puedes, satisfecho,
de que triunfa de mí tu tiranía:
que aunque dejas burlado el lazo estrecho

que tu forma fantástica ceñía,
poco importa burlar brazos y pecho
si te labra prisión mi fantasía.

English Translation
Which contains an amorous fantasy,
content with platonic love

Halt, you shadow of my fleeting joy,
image of the charms I most desire,
lovely dream for whom I laughing die,
sweet untruth for whom I grieving live.

If to the magnet of your graces' pull,
my heart responds like an obedient steel,
to what end do you court me, flattering
if later you will mock me, fugitive?

But don't think you can boast, self-satisfied,
that your tyranny triumphs over me:
for though you've fled and the tight noose have mocked

that once encircled your fantastic form,
I care not that you mock my arms and breast
for in my mind's own prison you are locked.

(©Alix Ingber, 1995)

Here is Trueblood's translation:

You Men (Español)

Hombres necios que acusáis
a la mujer sin razón,
sin ver que sois la ocasión
de lo mismo que culpáis:

si con ansia sin igual
solicitáis su desdén,
¿por qué quereis que obren bien
si las incitáis al mal?

Combatís su resistencia
y luego, con gravedad,
decís que fue liviandad
lo que hizo la diligencia.

Parecer quiere el denuedo
de vuestro parecer loco,
al niño que pone el coco
y luego le tiene miedo.

Queréis, con presunción necia,
hallar a la que buscáis,
para pretendida, Thais,
y en la posesión, Lucrecia

¿Qué humor puede ser más raro
que el que, falto de consejo,
el mismo empaña el espejo
y siente que no esté claro?

Con el favor y el desdén
tenéis condición igual,
quejándoos, si os tratan mal,
burlándoos, si os quieren bien.

Opinión, ninguna gana:
pues la que más se recata,
si no os admite, es ingrata,
y si os admite, es liviana

Siempre tan necios andáis
que, con desigual nivel,
a una culpáis por crüel
y a otra por fácil culpáis.

¿Pues cómo ha de estar templada
la que vuestro amor pretende,
si la que es ingrata, ofende,
y la que es fácil, enfada?

Mas, entre el enfado y pena
que vuestro gusto refiere,
bien haya la que no os quiere
y quejaos en hora buena.

Dan vuestras amantes penas
a sus libertades alas,
y después de hacerlas malas
las queréis hallar muy buenas.

¿Cuál mayor culpa ha tenido
en una pasión errada:
la que cae de rogada
o el que ruega de caído?

¿O cuál es más de culpar,
aunque cualquiera mal haga:
la que peca por la paga
o el que paga por pecar?

Pues ¿para quée os espantáis
de la culpa que tenéis?
Queredlas cual las hacéis
o hacedlas cual las buscáis.

Dejad de solicitar,
y después, con más razón,
acusaréis la afición
de la que os fuere a rogar.

Bien con muchas armas fundo
que lidia vuestra arrogancia,
pues en promesa e instancia
juntáis diablo, carne y mundo.

You Men (English)

Silly, you men-so very adept
at wrongly faulting womankind,
not seeing you're alone to blame
for faults you plant in woman's mind.

After you've won by urgent plea
the right to tarnish her good name,
you still expect her to behave--
you, that coaxed her into shame.

You batter her resistance down
and then, all righteousness, proclaim
that feminine frivolity,
not your persistence, is to blame.

When it comes to bravely posturing,
your witlessness must take the prize:
you're the child that makes a bogeyman,
and then recoils in fear and cries.

Presumptuous beyond belief,
you'd have the woman you pursue
be Thais when you're courting her,
Lucretia once she falls to you.

For plain default of common sense,
could any action be so queer
as oneself to cloud the mirror,
then complain that it's not clear?

Whether you're favored or disdained,
nothing can leave you satisfied.
You whimper if you're turned away,
you sneer if you've been gratified.

With you, no woman can hope to score;
whichever way, she's bound to lose;
spurning you, she's ungrateful--
succumbing, you call her lewd.

Your folly is always the same:
you apply a single rule
to the one you accuse of looseness
and the one you brand as cruel.

What happy mean could there be
for the woman who catches your eye,
if, unresponsive, she offends,
yet whose complaisance you decry?

Still, whether it's torment or anger--
and both ways you've yourselves to blame--
God bless the woman who won't have you,
no matter how loud you complain.

It's your persistent entreaties
that change her from timid to bold.
Having made her thereby naughty,
you would have her good as gold.

So where does the greater guilt lie
for a passion that should not be:
with the man who pleads out of baseness
or the woman debased by his plea?

Or which is more to be blamed--
though both will have cause for chagrin:
the woman who sins for money
or the man who pays money to sin?

So why are you men all so stunned
at the thought you're all guilty alike?
Either like them for what you've made them
or make of them what you can like.

If you'd give up pursuing them,
you'd discover, without a doubt,
you've a stronger case to make
against those who seek you out.

I well know what powerful arms
you wield in pressing for evil:
your arrogance is allied
with the world, the flesh, and the devil!

If anyone has read Knowledge of Angels a novel by Jill Paton Walsh, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. I loved the book.

Urania, thanks for the tip on "Knowledge of Angels"; I have it on order and am looking forward to reading it.

# 38 nohrt4me - You are welcome. No one I know has read this book or shown any desire to read it. It came out and seemed to vanished. I was fascinated by the book and by the questions that it raises.

nohrt4me--Thank you for the biographical information on Lamott; as this was my first book by her, I was not aware of most of it and most of the incidents you cite are outside the scope of her first book.

Nevertheless, I still enjoyed this book very much. None of what you said changed my view of the writing or views expressed in this book.

nohrtforme & urania:Thanks for the thoughts on Julian of Norwich. I haven't read anything on the Christian mystics, but plan on doing so and your comments and recommendations were very interesting.

I think all this begs my question of the place for Christian women theologians today. Do you see opportunities for them to support themselves in this field that I missed in my post above? I belive nohrt4me's comment about the quantity of men's theological books is exactly the point I was making.

streamsong, a book should stand on its own, and Lamott has struck chords with lots of people, and probably done more good than my grousing about her.

As far as I can tell, Lamott writes mostly about herself and God. Someone like Julian or Norwich reports what she understands about God and what kind of hope this might bring to all of us.

It's a more generous kind of writing, if I can use that word, less self-absorbed.

By "supporting themselves," do you mean in academia, which is where most of the theologians live?

That's an interesting question!

Different denominations and faiths outside Christianity have their own views and biases about the proper role of women, and I'm sure that goes double for theology.

I'm a Catholic, and there are women who write about theological issues--thinking of Sister Joan Chittister here--but they're often in hot water with "the authorities."

I think lots of women write about their religious experiences and reflections, which is a bit different from theology. In fact, women seem to talk and write about this so much that some men complain about the "feminization" of the church.

Catholic men frequently complain that the women are "taking over" and some evangelical men (notably Chuck Colson) have complained about the same.

In fact, some men have formed a group called "God Men" to fight the feminization of their "mean, wild Jesus." Last time I looked, they had a Web site. Don't go there if y ou don't want to puke.

#41: Scary. So do God Men wear What-Would-Mean-Wild-Jesus-Do bracelets made out of leather and shark teeth?

Sorry I am coming to the discussion late.

There are some serious works of theology written by women, but they are far and few in between. They tend to come in two categories; feminist theology, and theology written by women. (not that feminist theology is NOT theology. It is.)

Former Category: Phyllis Tribble, Texts of Terror: Literary-Feminist Readings of Biblical Narratives

Rosemary Radford Ruether; Feminist Theologies: Legacy and Prospect

Catherine Mowry Lacugna; Freeing Theology: The Essentials of Theology in Feminist Perspective

LaCugna also wrote a wonderful book on the Trinity, which is not necessarily from a feminist perspective, God for Us: The Trinity and Christian Life.

Not Feminist but still very good theology by women
Ellen T. Charry By the Renewing of Your Minds: The Pastoral Function of Christian Doctrine

Catherine Pickstock; After Writing: On the Liturgical Cosummation of Philosophy (Challenges in Contemporary Theology)

and finally, a friend of mine from way back,
Marianne Meye Thompson; The Promise of the Father: Jesus and God in the New Testament

Hi Arctic

Thanks for joining us! This disucssion is pretty quiet although there is also another thread for discussing what we are reading

http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.php?topic=40649

Could you define feminist theology, please? The book I mentioned on the other thread The Woman With the Alabaster Jar; Mary Magdalen and the Holy Grail is tagged here on LT as feminist theology but seems a bit far out; according to it everything from the Tarot to Cinderella are examples of the hidden feminine divine.

A friend read a novel that may be very fitting for this discussion. Saving Grace by Lee Smith. School Library Journal says it is about "Southern life and spiritual searching."

Defining Feminist Theology...hmmm...ok, start with the premise that all religious talk is filtered through a male patriarchy, and thus only partially reliable.

At this point you have two options. If you strip away the parts that clearly influenced by said male patriarchy, you have valid theological language. That is one agenda for Feminist Theology. The second is to assume that a) there is not purely objective theology, and that all theology comes through cultural filters, b) that male dominated forms of religion had their day in the sun, and failed, and finally c) a new paradigm must be developed, one that emphasizes the feminine aspects of deity.

That is really just a sliver of a thumbnail sketch.

Also, and how could I forget...the woman writers who most influenced my own theology

Susan Howatch, who wrote the Church of England series of novels, Glittering Images, Glamorous Powers, Ultimate Prizes, Scandalous Risks, Mystical Paths, and Absolute Truths. She knows her theology.

Evelyn Underhill, who wrote the best book on Mysticism to date, along with several shorter, less academic book on actually being a mystic, including Practical Mysticism and The Spiritual Life.

And finally, Teresa of Avila's work, primarily Interior Castle and Way of Perfection. The best book about her life is Cathleen Medwick's Teresa of Avila: The Progress of a Soul.

Speaking of Teresa of Avila, I'm reading Entering the Castle: An Inner Path to God and Your Soul by Caroline Myss which is her modern interpretation of Saint Teresa's Interior Castle.

This book is a wonderful introduction to prayer and mystical devotion. I highly recommend seeing Caroline Myss in person, if given the chance. She's a brilliant, warm, funny, and wise speaker.

Thanks for the further recommendations Arctic, avaland and basbooks. Instead of getting a few books off my tbr pile, I can see that this discussion is going to be adding to it greatly.

Thanks Arctic for the thumbnail definition. It feels like a puzzle piece that I couldn't quite see just fell into place. Sometimes the elephant in the room is wearing her camoflage sneakers and I miss seeing her altogether.

It also helps that the final chapter in the book I'm reading is about this concept. I'll post over on the other thread when I finish.

# 45 avaland, Saving Grace is an interesting book. On a personal note, I had Lee as a creative writing teacher for several classes many moons ago. She is a wonderful person and terrifically funny, although I don't remember Saving Grace as particularly humorous.